Jewish History pre WWII

newcomer

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:08 pm

Genius wrote:

I’m not. I quoted from a covering hair thread that was locked. I’m challenging the statement/sentiment that jews has were the frummest you could get at that point in history.

Which other European community would you name as being more religious, though? In which city or country?

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:11 pm

newcomer wrote:

Which other European community would you name as being more religious, though? In which city or country?

None.
I’m comparing to today.
The discussion I posted from was whether it’s ok to uncover hair. Said poster claimed that in prewar Europe many women weren’t covered and they were the frummest you can get... I didn’t think the claim was accurate

newcomer

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:36 pm

Genius wrote:

I don't think you can compare different eras, certainly not 100 years apart.

Nowadays you may have communities that outwardly look more Frum than those of the past, let's say with being machmir on kashrus, but when you look at the level of religious education most of us have, as well as easy and plentiful access to such a variety of foods, you may realize that it is easy for us to be on a certain level with kashrus but that's because we don't have the same challenges they did.
OTOH, if you look at measures of tznius (and I am fully aware that women didn't necessarily cover their elbows etc) it is more challenging nowadays for women to dress according to tznius guidelines because we stand out so much in greater society. OTOH it is easier to cover your hair with such naturally looking wigs nowadays. Easier than hats because outside of some churches, women generally do not wear hats when they are out of the house like what was once done.

I can recommend another good book, Three Minutes in Poland (or you can look up the video it is about on youtube to get a good look at a typical Polish town's Jewish community in early 20th century. It is a fascinating video to see, especially because part of it has color video. It is one of the only ones that exist.)

newcomer

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:39 pm

Raisin wrote:

Have yolu read all for the boss? Ruchama Shein lived for a couple of years in Mir in about 1930 and she talks about how surprised she was that not all the women covered their hair.

Good point. I forgot about her book. She mentioned gifting a kerchief to a friend at one point.
Also I could be wrong but I seem to recall it included a photo of her parents as a young couple with their older children and I don't think her mother was covering her hair at that time. But I think we can all agree, the Herman family was VERY frum.

Last edited by newcomer on Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

chanchy123

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:41 pm

Genius wrote:

I’m not. I quoted from a covering hair thread that was locked. I’m challenging the statement/sentiment that jews has were the frummest you could get at that point in history.

sorry, I must have missed that thread.
I agree that pre-war Europe was not necessarily the “frummest you can get” but do agree that many frum women did not cover their hair in the early-mid 20tb century.

yiddishmom

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:57 pm

I didn't read all the responses, but this is how I understand it.

Back then, they had a temimos that we don't have. They followed menorah more and had a stronger connection to yoddishkeit. But, not everyone covered their hair and not that many men were learning like today. Not that many people knew halacha as well as we know it today.

Today, we know many halachos, majority of us cover our hair because it accepted BH, many many girls marry learners/ many men are in kollel. We do the motions better than they did back then, but we don't have that connection/ temimos that they had.

I am not bringing sources or anything. Just explaining how I see/ understand things from the various books that I read, stories that I've heard. Etc.

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:00 pm

yiddishmom wrote:

I agree

sequoia

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:05 pm

Genius wrote:

Interesting. Hats too? And was that during communism or before the revolution?

So, during Communism, it wasn’t the Russian Empire, it was the USSR.

During the 19th century. I read the original document, I don’t remember the exact date. The argument was that Jewish women could always cover their hair by other means if they just wanted to be modest, while wigs (like chassidic levush) were specifically Jewish garments and therefore illegal.

How could hats be illegal??? In every society men and women put on hats when they went out up until the 1950s.

Chickensoupprof

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 2:07 pm

I know from the aunt of my mom who died two years ago I thought on her 99th, in Amsterdam that a few observant women wore or a hat or a bandeau some other observant women wore nothing. I guess because money was also tight and people couldn't afford and also they wanted to be assimilated.