How do people afford seminary???

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 1:58 pm

Fox wrote:

I suspect that there are two reasons that seminary was singled out over piano lessons or even cleaning help.

First, the amount of money involved. For most families, seminary is a bigger financial commitment than piano lessons or cleaning help. But the same would be true of a major house renovation.

Second, Rabbi Fuerst, at least in my observations, is committed to breaking the "everybody has a pony" syndrome. Unfortunately, the high schools push hard for every girl to go to seminary, and they often imply that parents who don't send their daughters are neglecting their chinuch. What is problematic is that a very expensive commitment is being undertaken with very little scrutiny as to its value for a particular girl -- not whether seminary is or isn't a good thing.

As an aside, I suspect that many Imamothers reading this are unconsciously assuming that asking a shaila about financial lifestyle will automatically result in a "no."

I have not found that to be the case, either with Rabbi Fuerst or any other rav I've consulted. In fact, sometimes I've been surprised to have Rabbi Fuerst say something like, "Yes, this important for your mental health [or sholom bayis or chinuch or whatever]. Do you need help paying for it?"

I have only a weekly cleaning service, much less than many imamothers, and it adds up to nearly $7K per year, every year. Sleep away camp is also a recurring annual expense that is thousands of dollars per child. Both of these are just as prevalently considered a "need" that "everyone" has in the same circles where seminary is viewed as the norm. So I don't think the distinctions you're proposing hold up. Especially considering the discounts and other types of funds available for seminary.

amother

Wine

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:04 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I suspect that Rabbi Fuerst specifically targets seminary in Israel after he was very involved in the drama of certain shenanigans going on in seminary.
It highlighted, at least to him, that maybe the culture of seminary in Israel together with the dorm, encouraged closeness with teachers, etc may not always be a positive thing.

amother

Taupe

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:08 pm

There's no way I can afford seminary, even with typical discounts.

Also, yes, for dd it would be a year of summer camp.

She's in 8th grade now and I told her seminary is not something I think would be useful or even enjoyable for her, nor can I afford it. She agreed.

She would sooner go to work or college (living at home). And yes, most or all of her friends will go to sem. I told my kids they are welcome to live at home after HS if they are working/going to school some combination of full time. I will feed them and shelter them. But they will have to make their way otherwise.

I don't have cleaning help. I've spent $3k on vacations in the course of 10 years--which means we don't really go on vacation and when we do, it's not fancy. I make my own pesach.

BH I make just barely 6 figures, but I'm working poor....I don't get government assistance and have to pay for my stuff. (That's not a diss, but it is a fact.) I don't get sympathy or handouts because "she has a good job" so people assume I make a lot more than actually do because they have no idea. So, that's that. Can't draw water from a rock.

Mommyg8

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:08 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Yup. I've said this before, but that psak just rubs me the wrong way. Of course learning for young women is the first thing to get cut. (I don't have a problem if an individual wants to go of course, but Gd forbid Florida trips and cleaning help get the same level of scrutiny).

Considering that in the RW world, Eretz Yisroel yeshivos for boys are often almost free, then yes. If you want to start a conversation about equality, let's talk about the (lack of) equality of boys getting bare bones apartments, bare bones food, and an extremely high pressured schedule, versus the Seminary "experience" the girls often get.

And I honestly don't understand why you think it's OK to criticize a PSAK from a Rav. He's not from your world, great. You don't have to follow his psak. But this kind of public criticism and bashing really leaves me puzzled.

And WADR, yes, it's absolutely TRUE that the halachah prioritizes Torah learning for boys over girls. Boys have a chiyuv of learning, girls don't. The LWMO world did not get a different Torah with different mitzvot, last time I checked.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:08 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

Very few girls manage to go to seminary by paying only 7k. That is by far a minority.

But seminary is only one year per child. I will have cleaning help for 20+ years, as long as kids are in the home.

I am not receiving tuition assistance by the way, so this is not personal for me. Just pointing out that my cleaning help is a significant and recurring expense.

Mommyg8

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:10 pm

Fox wrote:

He believes people should WANT to ask such shailas.

I know plenty of people who consult a rav before making major or very noticeable purchases, such as home renovations, etc. And that includes very wealthy people who are paying far more than their fair share of tuition. It's easy to get sucked into endless lifestyle upgrades before you know it.

I realize this is controversial to some people. I once had an anonymous poster follow me around Imamother for a few months muttering that she didn't need a rav to tell her how to spend her money.

But, of course, it's NOT our money. It's Hashem's money. That doesn't mean living like paupers. But because we live in a seductive consumerist society, most of us need our temperature checked from time to time.

Thank you so much for your posts on this topic, Fox. This is something that should be said, and said more often, but somehow it seems to be absent from almost every conversation I've seen here.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:12 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

If there are shenanigans going on the way you described, then no one should go--what does money have to do with it?

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:16 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

And I honestly don't understand why you think it's OK to criticize a PSAK from a Rav. He's not from your world, great. You don't have to follow his psak. But this kind of public criticism and bashing really leaves me puzzled.

I realize you were not speaking to me, but want to clarify that I am neither bashing Rav Fuerst nor criticizing. I have no idea what he said, which is why I asked Fox. I am disagreeing with justifications presented here by Fox in support of Rav Fuerst's psak as she described it. Perhaps Rav Fuerst would have entirely different justifications with which I agree or perhaps he would clarify that he views these other discretionary expenses the exact same way as seminary.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:32 pm

Chayalle wrote:

reading Fox's quote, which I quoted above, that's not what he said. He said barring unusual circumstances, parents may not.....

that sounds like a psak to me.

Again, he wasn't answering an individual shaila. I can only relate what he said at the time and my observations. In general, Rabbi Fuerst is relatively makhel about what might constitute "unusual circumstances."

In addition, I suspect people may be reading a negative into "unusual circumstances." An unusual circumstance might be that a girl is academically driven and really committed to a year of intensive study. That's very different from a girl who is going because all her friends are going.

I've also heard of circumstances where families were advised to send girls because of difficult family dynamics that might be ameliorated by the girl going to Israel for a year or so.

Every case is different. I suspect "unusual circumstances" just means that there are specific, thought-out reasons for a girl to attend seminary -- not that there's a high bar for what constitutes an unsual circumstance.

amother

Pewter

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:47 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Maybe but you aren't paying the 20 years worth in one year. Totally different when it is spread out over years worth and it's pay as you go. Unless you mean people should take out significant loans for seminary then take years to pay it off? I don't see that working out great for people with a few daughters close in age.

amother

Wine

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:59 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

And something like cleaning help, you can increase or decrease, or cancel depending on your financial situation.
I don't know of any cleaning service that makes you commit to a full year at one.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:03 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I'm not sure that he does see such expenses differently from seminary. The point is whether a large financial commitment, whether a one-time expenditure or a recurring expense, is appropriate -- particularly when a family is relying on the community to meet their needs educationally or otherwise.

I suspect that one of the reasons this seems controversial is because we think of tuition scholarships as inherently different from assistance with food, utilities, or other types of chesed. It seems like "everybody" gets tuition assistance to one degree or another.

But that really shouldn't be our attitude. If we're being helped by community resources, we should WANT to make sure our expenditures (whether seminary, piano lessons, or cleaning help) are appropriate.

Personally, I would rather ask a shaila. First of all, I'm more likely to get a makhel answer than if I poskin myself. Second, I'd rather enjoy my cleaning help without guilt. And finally, I want my kids to see that spending money wisely is a responsbility, not a right.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:25 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

He made this statement long before the problems developed.

But certainly, a girl's maturity and ability to handle potentially inappropriate or even dangerous situations should be considered as part of the equation.

Truthfully, my DH and I were not surprised by any of the problems that were exposed. When we investigated seminaries 7-8 years ago, we found that several offered little to no structure or supervision outside of the classroom. It was situation ripe for the exploitation of girls who had come from relatively sheltered backgrounds and might not correctly interpret warning signals.

I suspect things have changed a great deal since that time, but it's more evidence that it's not the right call for every girl.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:59 pm

mommish613 wrote:

What about the girls who go to seminary...then use tzedaka funds to pay for wedding expenses (yad batya l’kallah, Tiferes Devorah L’kallah)...shouldn’t that also be a question asked before they are given assistance?

Perhaps not in a punitive way -- after all, people's financial situation may change between seminary and a chassanah.

But if we find ourselves having to subsidize all kinds of other expenses, including weddings, while families continue to spend $20K+ on seminary, then we need to evaluate that.
______________________________

Really, it's the same question as how I afford a $900 handbag. The answer is that I give up something else that has less value to me than the handbag. Which means I haven't gone on a vacation since 2002 and have traveled to four weddings in my life. For many years I did not have cleaning help. My kitchen, as those who've visited me will attest, is falling apart.

However, it's one thing for me to personally give up vacations, cleaning help, and home renovations so that I can have nicer handbags. Albeit for the cost of a new kitchen, I could have a Birkin! It's another thing if I were to herd everyone into a room and use my authority to coerce them into believing that they, too, must have expensive handbags.

The problem is that the high schools sell seminary in a way that makes it hard for people to decide whether they value it or not. Rather, parents are made to feel like cheapskates if they say no -- and even feel as if they aren't sufficiently committed to their daughters' chinuch.

I believe what Rabbi Fuerst was attempting to say was that people must consult daas Torah if they wish to prioritize seminary over the financial needs of local day schools.

If my husband were seriously disturbed by the condition of our kitchen, Rabbi Fuerst might tell me to sell my handbags and fix up the kitchen. Or, given the cost of such renovations, he might tell my husband to count his blessings and buy me a new handbag!

little neshamala

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 4:12 pm

Fox wrote:

However, it's one thing for me to personally give up vacations, cleaning help, and home renovations so that I can have nicer handbags. Albeit for the cost of a new kitchen, I could have a Birkin! It's another thing if I were to herd everyone into a room and use my authority to coerce them into believing that they, too, must have expensive handbags.

The problem is that the high schools sell seminary in a way that makes it hard for people to decide whether they value it or not. Rather, parents are made to feel like cheapskates if they say no -- and even feel as if they aren't sufficiently committed to their daughters' chinuch.

This is so true...well said.
Thank you

amother

Turquoise

Sat, Nov 28 2020, 11:29 am

dancingqueen wrote:

When my kids were in elementary school, the posek for the school put in writing that families who go to a hotel for Pesach may not receive scholarship funds from the school. (I'm pretty sure there were exceptions for whatever reason, but the message was clear - you should be paying for your daughter's education before a vacation. )

ETA, I totally do not want to sidetrack this thread. We don't need to discuss going away for Pesach. I just wanted to show that it's not always education for girls that gets pushed to the bottom of the pile.