Men - women office dynamics

imaima

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:28 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I'm getting the sense that these issues are worse in frum offices which is kind of strange.

People are not familiar with having friends of an opposite gender. They feel like the only way to be civil is to be curt or flirty, they cannot seem to find a middle way.

Secular people have a more varied experience of interactions with all sorts of people, they recognize when an interaction is innocent or turns weird, so they don't need to build so many fences around oneself.

amother

Hotpink

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:35 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

It's very interesting to me that everyone feels if you give ice they will back off. This totally did not work with me in experiences I had with 2 men. I was very cold and abrupt, and they just didn't get it!

In my experience, it works the opposite. If everyone is casual and friendly and you are cold, women avoid you and men tease you, so you get the opposite of what you try to achieve. You end up with more male attention than otherwise.

Pair it with wearing only skirts and dresses, so looking generally much more feminine than the rest of the office, and you will definitely stand out.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 5:53 pm

Crookshanks wrote:

The English sefer someone referenced up thread is called 9-5.

I wouldn't call it a "sefer" exactly. It's a book. IIRC it doesn't give halachic sources.There may not BE a genuine halachic source for not saying "good morning" to your male boss or coworker unless they greet you first. Yichud is a whole different ballgame.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 6:14 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

n It's so easy for things to cross and to grow from an office conversation to something bigger.

If you're the sort of woman to think that way. I can't imagine getting up close and personal with any of my male coworkers. To me they're like tref food--I don't view tref food as food and am not tempted to eat it, and I don't view my coworkers as "men" to get involved with. Once we've exhausted the topics of who's retiring, who's being groomed to replace whoever's retiring, and are we likely to be assigned to review this year's batch of grant proposals, what else is there to talk about?

amother

Puce

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 7:07 pm

imaima wrote:

Not in my experience, but also could be that things which were acceptable in the non frum offices are considered crossing the line in my current frum workplace such as minor flirting and some minimally personal conversations.

amother

Gray

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 7:52 pm

Very interesting.

I guess we all have our own experiences, and we make assumptions and generalizations based on those experiences.

I worked on a military base as a single woman in my 20s, one of very few female civilians. The vast majority of my patients were young male servicemen. It was a disaster. Many of the men I worked with and treated were proffesional and appropriate, but many were not. There was a lot of flirtation, inuendo, off color jokes. I eventually left, even though I loved the work. All the banter was beginning to feel a little bit too normal.

I work now in a large clinic with many frum and not frum employees. Of course there is the occasional co-worker who crosses a line, but for the most part, it's a very professional work environment. My frum male co-workers are polite, friendly, and business-like.

It seems though that many of you have had opposite experiences.

amother

Plum

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:09 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Working in a male dominated army workplace is a totally different ball of wax. Especially if the majority of the men are young males.
You cannot begin to compare it to the typical office in corporate America.

frieda967

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:30 pm

imaima wrote:

The reason it's worse in a frum office is because we are so connected through the community, there is a natural feeling of connection. In a nonjewish office (or public school, in my experience) there is no such connection even when you are chatty.

dancingqueen

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:33 pm

imaima wrote:

Right I hear, although these days after #metoo, secular people are being more careful than before as well.

zaq

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:39 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I'm getting the sense that these issues are worse in frum offices which is kind of strange.

maybe not so strange.
I have no trouble resisting piles of tref goodies people bring in to work for the holidays, but show me that there's a little (U) in one-point type on the back of the package and watch out 'cause I'm gonna inhale it. It's the same package of goodies as it was before you showed me the (U), but before it wasn't food to me and now it is.
Same thing presumably with men. Nonjewish men aren't "men." They're not even on your radar. Frum men, on the other hand...are.

sushilover

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:10 pm

I disagree that the issue is worse in frum workplaces. When I worked with secular coworkers, the line was so blurry. It was a real struggle.
One guy would call everything s*xy. Like, that new copy machine is so s*xy. Others would use expressions like, you can bet your *ss...
I would feel so uncomfortable, but just wrote it off as cultural differences and tried to ignore it. One guy noticed my ring during a conversation, and said too bad the good ones are taken. Again, I wasn't sure if he was being inappropriate or just making small talk.

When I worked in a place with religious men, the boundaries were so much clearer. One guy called me "cute" and I immediately froze him out. I don't care if he was just talking about my personality or my age. He crossed a line and we both knew that.
It was such a relief.

amother

Copper

Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:24 pm

sushilover wrote:

There is no way calling random objects sxy would fly in my workplace. We have HR for a reason.
& secual harassment seminars which includes note using crude language

imaima

Mon, Jan 18 2021, 12:50 pm

sushilover wrote:

But there is a range between small talk and inappropriate. The guy definitely gave you a compliment but it does not mean that he wants to have sx with you. Depending on the personality, he may be saying it to every woman he sees.

ShishKabob

Mon, Jan 18 2021, 1:00 pm

That's why I insist on speaking to a chassidish boss only in English and NOT in Yiddish. It breeds too much familiarness if that's a word. So it makes sense if you're from the same community, to be extra careful that the lines don't get blurred, not because one person is necessarily a flirt but because it's too familiar.

HonesttoGod

Mon, Jan 18 2021, 8:20 pm

I think it has to do with lines.
In most frum offices I have worked in, the frum people had blurry lines (and I see this out of the office too with people around the community). We spend so much of our lives being taught that it is assur to talk to or look at those of the opposite s-x and G-d forbid we stand near one for more than 20 seconds in the checkout line of the grocery.
This translates to when we get a little older and we get married and/or go to work, we have no idea how to just be normal decent human beings that don't flirt with everyone and can have a normal balanced polite relationship without it being way over the top.

In the non-religious place I worked at, I did not have a single issue with any of my coworkers. We were a mix of women and men and we all mingled, talked work during work and occasionally had work parties or get togethers during lunch or after hours and there was absolutely no inappropriateness or anything of the sort.

But then again I did not grow up in a religious community and my lines aren't so blurry nor do I get freaked out by a man telling me I look nice today. "Thank you so much" and move on. Maybe I am just a snob and it takes more than "you're great thanks for doing that for me" to get me into bed.

amother

Scarlet

Mon, Jan 18 2021, 8:44 pm

This happens more in a frum workplace??? This is a frum forum so obviously you're only hearing frum workplace stories. And more people who have such issues are clicking on this thread. Of course this happens PLENTY in any office where men and women are working close together.
And for those people saying this only happens because frum people don't know how to interact with the opposite gender.....urmm no, there's a reason a lot of secular offices and colleges and you name it have sequal harassment in place!!!!!

amother

Scarlet

Mon, Jan 18 2021, 8:50 pm

HonesttoGod wrote:

But then again I did not grow up in a religious community and my lines aren't so blurry nor do I get freaked out by a man telling me I look nice today. "Thank you so much" and move on. Maybe I am just a snob and it takes more than "you're great thanks for doing that for me" to get me into bed.

Flirting has nothing to do with how snobby you are or how easy you are to get into bed. Nor does it matter if you get freaked out. Well, maybe for this thread it does since you seem to think that secular offices are less flirtatious based on the fact that yoi don't get freaked out by you look nice today. That IS flirting. And don't give me any of that oh its just regular talk which you don't get because you grew up frum.

HonesttoGod

Mon, Jan 18 2021, 10:53 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

Ok first, if you go to HR in any professional office and say "he told me I looked nice today" They will not file a complaint UNLESS it is done in a constant flirtatious manner.
Telling someone they look nice is NOT flirting. Unless it is said with a winky face and a slight touch in an inappropriate manner. Huge difference there.

Secondly, secular offices - of a professional manner, are generally less flirtatious than a frum office in Boro Park. Main reason being because there is HR and rules and regulations that affect someones livelihood. It doesn't mean there are no office flirtations in all secular offices, it means that the "flirting" is more of an issue in frum offices. In every way. Period.

Lastly, I DID grow up frum, I said I didn't grow up in a frum community - as in not a typical tri state area community. I DID grow up frum. But even if I didn't, the derogatory way to which you respond to that sentence is absolutely disgusting and I hope you never say something like that to someone who is not FFb.