S/o school acceptance- academic standards

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 5:23 pm

This is a spin-off of the school acceptance conversations.
I've been mulling this one for a while.
I want to clarify that I'm talking ONLY about high school. Primarily boys yeshivos, and some girls.
Do you think schools should or shouldn't be allowed to have a minimum standard for acceptance, not depending on family type, just students brains.
There's a lot of conversation about the importance of mainstreaming and having yeshivos and schools that have lower and higher academics.
But such a model, while possibly beneficial for less academically inclined, can really be problematic for the academically inclined.

My 8th grade son is top of his class. But he barely tries, is barely challenged, and has been complaining since 3rd grade how boring school is. Teachers give him busy work to keep him quiet- copy the mishna, do 4 times the amount of multiplication problems.
He's excitedly looking forward to trying to go to a "top" Mesivta. Top, not in the sense of "top families" but top in the sense of all highly academic, smart boys.
However, when he tells people that he's applying to certain places, we get criticized for being snobs, for being elitist, that he should go to different places to be a "good influence" or "good chavrusa" to boys who may be struggling.
I'm interested in thoughts.
Please be nice.
For the record, our parents are BT, we totally don't care about families and such, but we do think our son would benefit from an "elite place".

amother

Amber

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 5:45 pm

Quote:

Do you think schools should or shouldn't be allowed to have a minimum standard for acceptance, not depending on family type, just students brains.

In a place where the school is one of many options, I think it is OK to have niche schools by hashkafah, academics, and otherwise, with some schools being selective. In a community with one or two schools, absolutely not.

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 5:58 pm

Ok. We live in Lakewood. There are something like 37 mesivtas. But it's a complicated, stressful situation for many parents.
Ultimately, we will send where we think is the best (and where we can get in).
But this talk about Gaiva on the other threads makes me wonder.
Should schools for highly intelligent, academic students and schools for lower academics exist, or is it a bad thing that they really should all be mixed together.

amother

Orchid

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 6:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have 2 children. One is average/above average in schoolwork. The other is well below average. I would love for them both to be intellectually stimulated and not overly stressed. So yes, I wish there were lower academic, average and higher academic. I know it's not so simple though.

amother

Tan

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 6:05 pm

OP I'm in exactly the same boat as you. Everybody we've asked has told us not to aim for the top, even though DS can easily handle it. I'm wondering why and I'm scared that the yeshivos we're applying to will not challenge him/push him enough....

Why is everyone advising us against it?

amother

Silver

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 6:10 pm

Why do there have to be separate schools?
Why can't the same school have classes on different levels? That's the way it worked in the public school I went to, and in the dati leumi high schools my kids go to.

That way, the kids are academically challenged, but they don't grow up in some elite bubble. They spend their breaks with kids of all levels, they eat lunch with them, go on tiyulim together, they do activities with them, etc.

It also works well in schools with many subjects, because some kids are good in some subjects and not in others. They have the opportunity to choose the appropriate level for each subject.

amother

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 6:14 pm

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

These are all small mesivtas that don't take more than 1 or 2 parallel classes.

amother

Aquamarine

Sun, Jan 24 2021, 6:21 pm

I think a high school level is a different ball game.

But what's frustrating is when all the schools on your hashkafa level decide they can only accommodate the highest achievers. So then you'll get a really sweet and good middot boy who has to go to a school that doesn't match his own hashkafa because the learning level isn't high enough.

It is weird how schools that are academically strong are the ones with the strong hashkafa. And schools think that if a kid can't perform academically it means he needs a school that won't expect much from him on a hashkafa level either.

amother

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:31 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I agree that that's problematic.
And I see that too.
But I see high schools and mesivtas geared towards A students, B students, C students.
My son is a A+ student.
I could (and probably should) send him to an A+ place.
But we don't appreciate being called snobs and Baalei Gaiva.
And my son has spent years sleeping in class, unchallenged. Having to dumb himself down with chavrusos.
He's craving chavrusos that provide mental gymnastics for him, Rebbis that teach him material he doesn't know, and work that actually challenges him to think, learn, grow.

I think all this is a good thing. But it's politically and socially incorrect.
Anyone else?

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:46 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't understand. Is there a school that exists that would better suite your son's needs? If yes, please send him. Let everyone think what they want. The same way I am ready to send my child to a school that has shorter hours/easier learning and don't care what ppl think bec. it's better for my child.

amother

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:52 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I'm sending him where he will thrive. Iyh we will get accepted.
I guess I'm trying to open up a dialogue.
And bring awareness.
Not all "elite schools" or families that chase and bang down "elite schools" are doing it for the prestige and ego. Nor do we care about the "right families" or any of that mishegas.
We are looking for a place where our child can thrive.
And not all children and teens thrive in the middle of the road community schools that accept everyone.
And that's ok.

DrMom

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:52 am

Of course private schools should be able to choose students based (partly) on their academic performance.

It makes a heck of a lot more sense than admitting/rejecting children based on the color of their father's shirt or the color of their mother's stockings.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:55 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

A baal gaiva is someone who says "I don't want my kids in a school with kids who aren't as smart as him"

A responsible parent says "I want my child in a place that will give him what he is looking for both intellectually and spiritually"

BTW I don't like when parents say their child is "bored" if the child really is intellectually curious he doesn't allow himself to be bored.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:56 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The problem becomes when it becomes the standard. I will explain. My nephew is in a very good school. The hours are crazy long and it is too much for him. I asked my sister why she can't send to a different school. She said that all the schools are like this. The ones that have shorter hours ARE FOR PROBLEM KIDS. That's the problem!

amother

Amber

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 9:59 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

BTW I don't like when parents say their child is "bored" if the child really is intellectually curious he doesn't allow himself to be bored.

I think a bright child can entertain himself if allowed. But from what I've seen on here, some teachers won't let a child who has mastered the material go on to read something else or draw or otherwise entertain themselves, even quietly in their own seat.

amother

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 10:03 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

My son took a bechina yesterday. It was a huge midterm on everything they learned. It was supposed to take 90 minutes.
My son finished in 25 minutes. He got 115%
Instructions were that when you finished the test, you go to a specific, empty room, say tehillim. My son said tehillim for 20 minutes, then took a nap.

amother

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 10:05 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

That is true, and a very real problem.
But the answer is not to hold back or restrict the "truly capable" children. The answer is to be more realistic about what each child is capable of doing.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Jan 25 2021, 10:15 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

Most mesivta were I live are one class. Like 27 boys sit in one Shiur. Morning Shiur is 2 1/2 hrs long with 15 min break. It’s fast moving and intense. Honestly you need to be able to hack it and keep up with the rebbe - whatever level he is teaching to. If you are teaching to a small class with one teacher it’s more difficult to have more of a mix that you can in a larger school. I went to a school with parallel classes and we had high middle low. Here it is just one group.