Isn't Kollel Life contrary to the Ketubah?

Atali

Tue, Feb 05 2008, 10:01 pm

Quote:

The ONLY reason they are hated so much is the perception that they live on public funds and don't contribute anything to the society. No work, no services, no army service - nothing but sit in Bais Midrash all day and learn or pretend to learn.

You have got to be kidding me! The only reason?

I don't even accept that is the main one. From what I have heard, there is plenty of animosity against the religious zionists too, and they DO serve in the army and work.

I would say that the main reason is political.

I'm sad to hear that a frum person could say that limud haTorah isn't a "service" to society.

Do you realize that there were always people, Shevet Levi, who dedicated themselves to learning Torah and were supported by the people. I guess you must think that Hashem got it wrong (chas v'shalom)

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Feb 05 2008, 10:47 pm

amother wrote:

Again, The Rambam and Pirkei Avot knew everything about Yissachar and Zvulun. Yet they said what they said.

again, what you said that Rambam and PA say does NOT disqualify the Y&Z arrangement.
your rational sounds like that of the tzedukim.
Torah says don't cook on shabbos so lets live in the dark and cold and have cold food. Not cooking on shabbos does not disqualify the ways we get around it to have heat, light and hot food on shabbos unless you don't accept torah sh'bal peh.

Quote:

Which Rabbanim today are qualified to argue against them? Those who turned their Torah into their parnassa?

and even if what they say does disqualify it, like HY said, we don't pasken according to Rambam in many matters.

Last edited by Lechatchila Ariber on Tue, Feb 05 2008, 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

mimivan

Tue, Feb 05 2008, 11:01 pm

amother wrote:

The Chareidi people in Israel are very hated by the non-religious. Even some of the non-Chareidi religious people hate them. The ONLY reason they are hated so much is the perception that they live on public funds and don't contribute anything to the society. No work, no services, no army service - nothing but sit in Bais Midrash all day and learn or pretend to learn. (Lubavitchers are the only exception - they do work and contribute to the society and are NOT hated by the non-religious.)

Isn't this the fulfillment of the Rambam's prophecy? "Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaqa - this person desecrates God's name (*Chillel et Hashem*), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in *Olam haBa* (The world to come); since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world."

Many Lubavitchers also sit in collel, as my husband did for the first 5 years of marriage...and we didn't accept public support, and did not sponge off of his mother (she did offer to pay for our meat) but I worked and paid Israeli taxes, and my chiloni in-laws know this....and they still manage to put us in the same category...
Now that my husband works, they think we are hypocrites for being religious and having a computer (which he needs for his work) Salut

So we cannot use the Chilonim as yardstick to let us know what we are and are not doing right...they will dislike us no matter what we do (and they dislike Chabad because we are too "in your face" confronting people on the street and "speak out too much about politics" Rolling Eyes

)

Five years in this country I have learned, there is no pleasing the chilonim...just love them as Jews and that's it!

I don't know if the Rambam you bring applies to the current situation. I assume also the every Rosh Collel knows this, and if he were in violation of an important Torah precept, obviously he wouldn't be a Rosh Collel!

I would like to hear from an authority on this matter...as others have brought interpretations of the passage you cite.

amother

Tue, Feb 05 2008, 11:20 pm

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We grew up with this hatered since the 1950's. We asked many non-religious people why they hate us so much. When most of them say the same thing, calling us "social parasites", we better listen to what they say.

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I would say that the main reason is political.

You talk about today. But, this is not how it started. It started from the perception of contributing nothing to the society. today's political hatered is a CONSEQUENCE, it is not the cause.

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I'm sad to hear that a frum person could say that limud haTorah isn't a "service" to society.

You have to look at it through the eyes of the non-religious people. To them, learning torah is not considered a service to society.

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Do you realize that there were always people, Shevet Levi, who dedicated themselves to learning Torah and were supported by the people.

Shevet Levi dedicated themselves to working very hard FOR THE PUBLIC not for themselves.

cdawnr

Wed, Feb 06 2008, 9:55 am

amother wrote:

Isn't this the fulfillment of the Rambam's prophecy? "Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaqa - this person desecrates God's name (*Chillel et Hashem*), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in *Olam haBa* (The world to come); since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world."

I have never learned this passage and am not well learned in general, but in my opinion I would think that this would apply to someone who said...
Hmm, if I stay in learning, someone is going ot pay me to sit in the beis midrash all day -- cool! (obviously my own slangy jargin...) Not someone who is dedicating themselves to learning Torah for a love of Hashem. That, to me, is how there can be Chillul Hashem.

Just so I am clear on my own perspective: I am one of those people who believes that kollel should be for the talented learners and the truly dedicated...and that if the financial situation becomes such that they need to beg and borrow, or completely overburden their wives, then they should not be in kollel. I think that there needs to be honest evaluation and maybe some reform in the system and in the attitudes towards both learners and workers...(again, yissachar and zevulan are EQUALLY important in their relationship).

Atali

Wed, Feb 06 2008, 11:03 am

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You have got to be kidding me! The only reason?

I don't even accept that is the main one. From what I have heard, there is plenty of animosity against the religious zionists too, and they DO serve in the army and work.

We grew up with this hatered since the 1950's. We asked many non-religious people why they hate us so much. When most of them say the same thing, calling us "social parasites", we better listen to what they say.

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I would say that the main reason is political.

You talk about today. But, this is not how it started. It started from the perception of contributing nothing to the society. today's political hatered is a CONSEQUENCE, it is not the cause.

Now that is historical revisionism if I ever saw it. The secular zionist establishment discriminated against the religious before the establishment of the IDF, and certainly way before kollel became popular. It used to be, at least from what I had read, that charedim who wanted jobs had trouble getting them.

Back then, the hatred mainly came from the fact that most of the secular zionists had grown up religious and resented their upbringing. Don't tell me that you think the reason that they prohibited teimani and holocaust survivor children from keeping mitzvos was due to the fear that they might learn in kollel instead of joining the army.

And you still haven't explained the animosity towards the religious zonists, which does exist.

As far as today is concerned, yes, secular people say that, but it is clearly not the only (or even main) reason. It is a convenient excuse

Quote:

Quote:
Do you realize that there were always people, Shevet Levi, who dedicated themselves to learning Torah and were supported by the people.

Shevet Levi dedicated themselves to working very hard FOR THE PUBLIC not for themselves.

And many people in kollel today work very hard for the public, by learning dayanus (and becoming poskim), becoming teachers (afterwards), or writing sefarim and chiddushei Torah, etc.

gonewiththewind

Wed, Feb 06 2008, 4:41 pm

amother wrote:

Shevet Levi dedicated themselves to working very hard FOR THE PUBLIC not for themselves.

Where did you get this from? What do you think they did when it was not their rotation in the bais hamikdash? What hard work for the public did they do?
You are not interested in hearing anything except proving that those in kollel are causing all the problems. Why so intolerant. No one is forcing you to do anything.

amother

Thu, Feb 07 2008, 1:03 am

Here is a possible solution to the conflict:

The key is in the first words in the relevant Rambam and the Yoreh De-ah (246), "Kol Hasam El Libo..." Anyone who decides on his own that he wants to learn Torah, avoid working for a living, and live on Tzdaka money - is desecrating ... etc.

But, if a sponsor discovers a particularly talented student and wants to encourage him to continue learning full time, the sponsor is allowed to offer the student support and the student is allowed to accept it.

Basically, if the student originates the idea - it is prohibited. If the sponsor originates the idea it is permitted and even encouraged.

ange

Wed, Feb 20 2008, 2:52 pm

It seems that OP here is the only one too coward to voice her(?) opinions with her true identity.

And it's b/c of people like you that I no longer visit this site. You are not interested in an answer - you are just out to condemn and say lashon hara.

And by the way, my husband learns in kollel. It seems to me that most of my non-kollel counterparts have more financial issues about money than we do (even with their bigger salaries)...maybe because some of them are mose mishubad to gashmius? And shalom bayis...the people I know in kollel seem to have warm and loving relationships, based on higher values and goals.

But then again, maybe the ones you know in kollel (your 3 kids?) are just a bunch of sour grapes. Try hanging out with a better group of people and you might just be surprised.