Does this not freak you all out?

browser

Thu, Mar 04 2021, 11:58 pm

DrMom wrote:

I think everybody agrees that preventing hospitalization is good. Why do you endorse hcq to prevent hospitalization but not vaccines (which also prevent hospitalization)?

And going back to my questions above:
1. What are the "basic human rights" you claim are being denied to non-vaccinated Israelis?
2. Why is it bad to treat covid with drugs other than hcq if they are more effective?

Not only hcq, I endorse all legal treatment be available to people- there are others
They should not be restricted
What is bad is not offering people treatment unless they are in the hospital

DrMom

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:15 am

browser wrote:

So far gyms, shuls and a few other places officially under green passport.

The names of people who do not take it are allowed to be released to the education department.
Many people have been threatened with their jobs.
This is how you create an underclass where healthy people are considered "diseased" unless they take what you tell them to take.
Being able to travel is a big concern.
There is no telling where this will go if a society embraces this.

Um, going to a gym is not a basic human right. My gym and many others (even before covid) requires anybody who signed up to submit a form from a doctor saying you are in good health.

Shuls have had outdoor davening for most of the pandemic. Anybody can daven there, no restrictions. This makes sense to me.

As for jobs: Hadassah Medical Center in Jerusalem is requiring workers with patient contact to be vaccinated. Do you object to this? I think most patients would not go to a hospital if they think their doctor will infect them with covid. Do you?

And I am still waiting for even one source to support any of the information you posted.

Last edited by DrMom on Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:17 am

Teomima wrote:

Israel has administered just shy of 8.5 million doses. The US has administered over 82.5 million. So pray tell how exactly we are the test lab?

Israel is making public health data available to check the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine, and is administering only that vaccine.

It is an experiment. But in the sense of "hey, let's take this thing we wanted to do anyway and run the numbers on it" not in the sense of "sure, go ahead and inject our citizens with random **** and let's see what happens."

DrMom

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:47 am

browser wrote:

Not only hcq, I endorse all legal treatment be available to people- there are others
They should not be restricted
What is bad is not offering people treatment unless they are in the hospital

Why do you think that Israel does not offer any treatment unless they are in the hospital?

Israel has actually been on the forefront of developing treatments for covid.

https://www.hadassah.org/story.....tment
https://www.israel21c.org/has-.....ovid/
https://www.israel21c.org/5-se.....drug/

Again, I am including sources. You never seem to.

amother

Lime

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:54 am

browser wrote:

What is bad is not offering people treatment unless they are in the hospital

As far as I know, Israel send kits home to people with covid, including a device to measure your oxygen levels at home.

(I heard this from someone who was sick, I don't know about it first hand).

Teomima

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:54 am

DrMom wrote:

As for jobs: Hadassah Medical Center in Jerusalem is requiring workers with patient contact to be vaccinated. Do you object to this? I think most patients would not go to a hospital if they think their doctor will infect them with covid. Do you?

What's more, hospital workers are already required to be up to date with their other vaccines, and if they refuse there are procedures in place to record their refusal and, under certain circumstances, limit certain high risk duties. All this predates and it's regardless of covid-19 vaccination policies.

ora_43

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 12:57 am

browser wrote:

Not only hcq, I endorse all legal treatment be available to people- there are others
They should not be restricted
What is bad is not offering people treatment unless they are in the hospital

So should anyone who wants ritalin be able to take it? Or opiod-based painkillers? What about people who want to use chemo, just in case they have cancer?

IMO the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I do see how it would be deeply disturbing for someone who really and truly believes that hcq cures covid to be told their doctor isn't willing to prescribe it. OTOH, it would be deeply disturbing for a doctor who sees that a different drug performs better against covid to be told "no, you can't give the medicine that you think based on your expertise and training is effective - you have to give the patient what they want."

Personally, I would allow it as an over-the-counter drug, given only after a mandatory lecture on the relative effectiveness of hcq compared to other treatments for covid, and after the buyer signs a consent form. But I don't see any maliciousness in alternate approaches - either the "give hcq to everyone just in case" approach or the "only by prescription" approach.

And I certainly wouldn't turn it into a standard policy. "The customer is always right" does not apply in medicine. People have a right to refuse treatment, yes, always. But not a right to demand treatment that is wildly inappropriate to their situation.

Teomima

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 1:14 am

ora_43 wrote:

Yes. Which doesn't make us a test lab, rather an invaluable source for data research.

browser

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 2:41 am

So going to the gym is not really necessary so it's ok for some people not to be allowed in? And to share their medical records with others. As well as the other things you left out of your assessment.
And it's ok to coerce people to take an experimental treatment and lie to them about it being fda approved because you are sharing their medical information with good intentions?
You are saying you want proof but are ok with lies.
When you are coercing people to take an experimental treatment or lose basic rights the proof is on you.
The antibody treatment they are trying on people is expensive and has yet to be proven for safety or effectiveness
https://www.fda.gov/news-event.....id-19

But it's ok to withhold cheap treatments doctors had available for decades to use off label.
I guess it comes down to this:
Whether or not you believe we are endowed with inalienable rights by our creator.
...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
I believe we are created btzelem Elokim and that no person, government or industry has a right to tamper with our bodies for "The Greater Good".

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 3:00 am

browser wrote:

It's common knowledge that the official recommendation is not to give hcq and zinc in Israel.
Not sure if they made it unavailable for off label use. Something that was never done with a legal drug until now.
Israel is using its population as a test lab for the new mrna vaxx. This is out in the open.
This while taking away the most freedom and human rights of any country.
I'm looking at this picture and thinking, if Jewish people respected each other could this happen?
Would people really tolerate this insane and illegal apartheid?
But because Jews do not respect each other, they are literally letting their country turn into a horror show.

what freedoms and human rights are being taken away?
And whenever people say that there is an apartheid in israel, I KNOW they dont actually know what that is.
Apartheid, like was in south africa for msny years, israel is nothing, nothing, like that.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 3:04 am

browser wrote:

Context, my friend.
That is over 50 percent of the population in Israel.
Israel is using coercion, basically anyone who has concerns and would not like to take this treatment is a second class citizen without many basic rights.
But, yeah, this is an issue everywhere that people allow it to happen

browser, your posts get more and more incredible, and not in a good way, as I read them.
I will make a hunch and say you dont live here. And I will also wager that you are getting your news from who knows where.
Please try getting actual facts right.
Nobidy us being coerced.
Basic rights? Everyone is allowed to buy food, go to the doctor etc, things that are NEEDED in life. Dont get badic rights confused with things people might WANT to do.

Elfrida

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 3:46 am

If you're referring to Israel's Declaration of Independence, this is probably the closest paragraph, setting out the aims of the State of Israel (in translation).

Quote:

The State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or relations; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

There is also this earlier paragraph, which is the only one which refers to any rights.

Quote:

Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Eretz-Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.

Neither of them seems to be exactly jest you are trying to refer to.

browser

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 4:24 am

Here is an article from aish
https://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/4.....e=yes
"We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Whereas, these words echo the ideas of the Enlightenment (see Part 53), without a doubt, the concept that these rights come from God is of Biblical origin.

But like I said in a previous post it's about whether you believe the right to liberty, including bodily autonomy is endowed by the creator.
- The creator of the world, including Israel

from wikipedia regarding informed consent:

The Nuremberg code, which stated explicit voluntary consent from patients are required for human experimentation was drafted on August 9, 1947. On August 20, 1947, the judges delivered their verdict against Karl Brandt and 22 others.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Mar 05 2021, 4:28 am

browser wrote:

browser, again, the documrnt you keep on quoting is part of american rights.
Why do you keep connecting it to israel? Israel is not part of america.
And also was not, for better or worse, created as a religious state.