Who said Hashem wants it to be this way?

sequoia

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 9:42 am

sushilover wrote:

A woman won’t accept a get? Heter mayah rabbonim
Halachicly a man could marry multiple wives until rabbeinu Gershom. Having a heter on a cherem is not comparable to finding a heter for y'harog v'al y'avor!

Of course, these are overly simplified answers. You could spend a lifetime learning to fully understand all of the above "heterim". The rabbanim I know have done so and they are not cruel and uncaring. The fact that there is no easy fix for agunos is because there is no easy fix for agunos.

But why? Why is it that in this day and age a man can both refuse a get, keeping his wife chained forever, and get a few signatures from corrupt rabbis to remarry himself? There was a case recently, remember? People were picketing his wedding in Las Vegas, but no one could stop it.

How can you say, “this is what Hashem wants. This is BETTER than secular marriage where a woman is a full human being, not property, who can initiate divorce herself.” HOW is it better? In issue of aguna, every frum woman is in danger of becoming one.

sushilover

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 10:50 am

sequoia wrote:

I didn't claim that it is better, I'm not sure who you are referring to. What I do say is that it's a completely different animal. Kosher marriage is not only about assets and property and a contract. It is also the cornerstone of jewish life and the way to ensure that future generations are kosher Jews. Women remarrying without a get can literally spell the destruction of Judaism.

A man who uses corruption to remarry, will certainly pay for it both in this world and the next. It's not fair, but that doesn't mean rabbanim can rewrite halacha. Two wrongs don't make a right.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:07 am

sushilover wrote:

The agunah issue is horrible and I daven every day that a solution is found. I understand (though don't condone) the group who were caught a few years ago beating up men who refused gets. I want to do the same, to be honest. In fact I would do worse.

Your examples aren't applicable though.

Can’t charge interest? Heter Iska.
All a heter iska is a document which changes a loan into a partnership. You can't change marriage into something else.

Can’t work the land on shmita? Heter Mechira. This is very controversial. Many many rabanim hold that it is assur. Plus, this is a document which transfers ownership to another person. How would this apply to marriage?

Can’t carry on shabbos? Eruv Chatzeiros.
Halacha dictates that one can carry in a gated area. Shlomo Hamelech instituted the idea that a string could function as a symbolic gate. Shlomo Hamelech I'm sure was aware of the issue of agunos. Why didn't he come up with a better solution? It's not because he didn't care, it's because this issue is so complicated and there is no easy "loophole".

Can’t walk far on shabbos? Eruv Tchumin.
Same as above.

Can’t enforce a loan after Shmita? Pruzbol.
Public loans are not nullified after shmitta. The tanoiim had to grapple with an issue which involved two mitzvos d'oreisa in conflict. So bais din took responsibility for private loans.I don't see how this can apply to marriage.

Can’t own chometz on pesach? Mechiras Chametz (with a bonus Bitul)

Again a lot of these issues are about transferring ownership. What ownership can you transfer in a marriage?
Bitul chometz is being more stringent, not less. You are not responsible for chometz you don't know about. The rabbanim wanted us to be even more careful and still nullify those crumbs we aren't aware of.

Can’t cook on Yom Tov for shabbos? Eruv Tavshilin
Again, see the other eruvin.

Promised to do something? Hataras nedarim
This doesn't nullify any contacts between you and another person.

First born that has to fast on erev pesach? Siyum
Fasting is an accepted minhag, not comparable to issue of kosher marriage which is a y'harog v'al y'avor and the cornerstone of judaism.

Can’t turn the light on during shabbos? Shabbos lamp.

Can’t take the steps on shabbos? Shabbos elevator.
The halachos didn't change. Modern rabbanim can apply halachos to modern problems but they cannot and do not change halacha.

Want to eat meat during the nine days? Siyum
Aveilus laws are changed during a seudas mitzvah. This isn't a new idea or a loophole. It's part of the hilchos aveilus.

A woman won’t accept a get? Heter mayah rabbonim
Halachicly a man could marry multiple wives until rabbeinu Gershom. Having a heter on a cherem is not comparable to finding a heter for y'harog v'al y'avor!

Of course, these are overly simplified answers. You could spend a lifetime learning to fully understand all of the above "heterim". The rabbanim I know have done so and they are not cruel and uncaring. The fact that there is no easy fix for agunos is because there is no easy fix for agunos.

Excellent post!

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:12 am

sequoia wrote:

Did you hear a Bas Kol come out and say "this is my will" there is a concept of abusing the Torah for your benefit, there is a concept of evil in this world. We are in Galus. You can also ask why ppl get away with murdering their wives and don't land up in jail. Why do ppl get visitation of their children and abuse them emotionally and there isn't anything that can be done. Why does a child not get the therapy they need bec their father has legal rights to refuse and a child is feeling suicidal and everyone's hands are tied. Sometimes life just sucks and we need to see the sunshine and smell the roses or we get lost in the hell of pessimism.

b.chadash

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:24 am

sequoia wrote:

But why? Why is it that in this day and age a man can both refuse a get, keeping his wife chained forever, and get a few signatures from corrupt rabbis to remarry himself?

The answer to your question is in the question itself.
In this day and age ...the rabbonim of today are like worms compared to the rabbonim of yesteryear, and even those rabbonim are worms compared to the Rishonim, Geonim, Amoraim etc. As Sushilover said, if Shlomo Hamelech could not find a loophole, do you expect the rabbonim "of this day and age" to find one?

This is c"v not about rabbonim being uncaring and cruel or not caring about women. These rabbonim have sisters and daughters too. If there was a way to do something they would. And they do try.

Rabbonim have always tried to do whatever they could to help agunos. ( Please realize that this has not been a problem of ginormous proportions in the jewish world, as it may seem like today. Get refusers are b"H a tiny fraction of people..it's wrong to say that every woman is in danger of this, like saying every woman is in danger of getting addicted to coffee. This could really scare women away from getting married if they look at every man as a potential get refuser. )

Most men are sane, rational people. Even if they have bad middos, most men will not keep their wife chained. Please lets put this in perspective.

Of course, none of this matters to the aguna. And even one anguna is too many. This is not to belittle her plight, c"v.

But my point is that because of social media publicizing all the agunos, it seems like there are more out there than there used to be, and its easy to get mad at rabbonim for ignoring this problem. But it's just an illusion.

In the past, people knew what was going on in their shtetel and maybe the neighboring one. Today we know about everything that is going on in every part of the world. So now rabbonim are working together to come up with a solution on a wide scale when in the past, it seemed like an extreme isolated case.

(Except for certain periods of history, such as after pogeoms or wars where there were lots of agunos for different reasons. We are talking here about get refusers.)

Last edited by b.chadash on Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total

b.chadash

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:42 am

sequoia wrote:

If there’s a particular law that harms a vulnerable part of the population, that has to be addressed. Whether it’s secular or religious law.

“Everyone suffers and there’s nothing we can do” is not the right response.

Sequoia I want to share a story that might give you chizzuk..

An aguna case was once brought before Rav Akiva Eiger. The husband refused to release his wife.

Rav Akiva Eiger summoned the man to come to his house. The man came and the Rav spent hours with him, trying to convince him to give his wife the get. The man was defiant, saying he will never give the get.

So the Rav said, "according to halacha, there are two ways that a woman can be free to remarry. One is if she receives a get, and the other is if the husband dies. So realize that if you refuse to give her a get, you are playing with your life!"

The man was incensed at the veiled threat and promised again that he would NEVER release his wife. He opened the door, stormed out of the room and promptly fell down a flight of stairs. His neck snapped and he died immediately.

I often think of this story when hearing about get refusers. No, I dont wish death on anyone, and I know we unfortunately do not see that all get refusers die horrible deaths.

But I belive that there is a din and a dayan. And just as Hashem takes mercy on other vulnerable people such as orphans and widows, He looks out for and takes care of agunos. Its so hard to watch them suffer, but I dont for a second think that they are forgotten by Hashem. The get refuser may look like he is getting off scot free. But each player in the story will get exactly what he or she is supposed to.

When everyone has done whatever they could and they could do no more, we need to trust Hashem and acknowledge that He runs the world.

amother

Aubergine

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 9:31 pm

b.chadash wrote:

LIKE is not even enough here

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 10:44 pm

sushilover wrote:

So then let’s make sure that women get their gets, so that we don’t spell the destruction of Judaism.