How do you pronounce יששכר? I'm confused how to

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 5:25 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

In chassidish hav'arah, a kamatz under a letter is pronounced "uh" if the next letter has a shva under it. Just like the non-chassidish hav'ara would be in this case.
Another example would be "Dan" (the name.)
It has a kamatz under the daled. Its pronounce "Duhn", not "Doon. "
Asher, has a kametz under the aleph but that would be pronounced "Ooo"

ETA: the nun by Dan doesnt actually have a shva. Words with a shva at the end are also pronounce "uh". Like Gad and Mishpat.
But its by a word like "ma'lah"
and "rachba" which have a kamatz followed by a shva nach, those are pronounced the same in both hav'aras.

Tnx for explaining. Dikduk was never my thing.

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 5:27 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

It doesn't matter how a name is spelled on the kesuba, only on a get and some people argue the matzeiva. The Belzer Rebbe is spelled with one on the matzeiva. And no one spells the name yehuda with an alef only the nickname yuda/yida but that's a nickname

http://kevarim.com/rebbe-dovid-rokeach/

Tnx.

b.chadash

Tue, Apr 06 2021, 10:10 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I always thought it was pronounced Yissaschar, but in Shtisel I'm hearing it pronounced "Yissachar" and I've never heard that before. Can someone explain? Have I been mispronouncing Yissaschar?

Hi everyone, and OP if you are still around...

We had a long conversation a few days ago on the proper way to pronounce this name.
I just finished listening to an excellent shiur by Rabbi Daniel Glatstien on TorahAnytime on this subject.

I encourage anyone who has an interest in this to listen to the shiur. He has a masterful presentation, and although it is 55 minutes, it is fascinating to listen to (at least to me.)

Since I know not everyone will bother to listen, I will summarize:

The discussion is how to pronounce the name of יששכר, son of Yaakov, when leining krias HaTorah. Practically speaking, what was his name?

Basically he brought 4 opinions:
1. According to proper dikduk (also Radak, Ibn Ezra and others) it is pronounced Yissachar. (Drop the second sin). This is the final ruling in practice.

2. According to someone named Ben Naftali (who we don't follow), you pronounce both sins (but see note below.)

3. According to Nachalas Yaakov, you pronounce it with 2 sins until Parashas Pinchas, and starting from Pinchas, it would be Yissachar.

4. According to Chassam Sofer, you pronounce it with two sins only the first time, and afterwards it would be Yissachar.

NOTE: BUT according to dikduk (Hebrew grammar), if you say that you need to pronounce the two sins, it would be YIS- SA -CHAR. It would never be Yissaschar.
(There are several dikduk rules for this which I won't go into now, unless someone asks me to. )

Continue reading if you are interested in the reasons behind #3 and #4.

-The Nachalas Yaakov brings that the reason why we switch by Pinchas is because יששכר had a son name Yov, whose name was changed to Yashuv in Parashas Pinchas. The reason it was changed is because Yov was the name of an avoda Zara, so יששכר gave him the extra "sin" from his name. So Yov became Yoshuv and from that point on, we call יששכר ,Yissachar.

-The Chasam Sofer's minhag was to pronounce two sins just the first time. Why?
He says that the reason we don't pronounce the second sin is because it recalls the story of the dudaim, where Leah "rented" Yaakov for the night in exchange for the dudaim. Since we would rather not publicize that, we drop the second sin. However, the Chassam Sofer says we should use the second sin just the first time because that was actually his name, even if we don't want to memorialize the renting of his father by his mother.

Rabbi Glatstien also mentioned the opinion of Tosfos, the Minchas Shai (considered to be the final word in dikduk) the Ba'al Haturim, the Noda B'Yehuda, the Steipler, Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov, and other lesser known people, who all weigh in on this question.

Also: According to the Yemenites, who are known to have the purest mesora, they never heard of anything but "Yissachar. "
Same goes for the Sefardim.

According to the B'nei Yehuda, it was always Yissachar in Poland, and he never heard otherwise until he came to Prague.

He did mention the B'nei Yisoscher, who everyone calls "Yisoscher". He didn't explain definitively how it came to be , but he said that Yis- Sa- Char is a tongue-twister, so it probably morphed into Yisoscher because of that.

(I was honestly hoping he would mention the fact that the Belzer Rebbes spell their name ישכר, but he didn't. )

If you are still reading, I would again encourage you to listen to the shiur because I only gave the highlights. Smile

https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....96384

Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Apr 06 2021, 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Apr 06 2021, 10:44 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Hi everyone, and OP if you are still around...

We had a long conversation a few days ago on the proper way to pronounce this name.
I just finished listening to an excellent shiur by Rabbi Daniel Glatstien on TorahAnytime on this subject.

I encourage anyone who has an interest in this to listen to the shiur. He has a masterful presentation, and although it is 55 minutes, it is fascinating to listen to (at least to me.)

Since I know not everyone will bother to listen, I will summarize:

The discussion is how to pronounce the name of יששכר, son of Yaakov, when leining krias HaTorah. Practically speaking, what was his name?

Basically he brought 4 opinions.
1. According to proper dikduk (also Radak, Ibn Ezra and others) it is pronounced Yissachar. (Drop the second sin). This is the final ruling in practice.

2. According to someone named Ben Naftali, (who we don't follow) you pronounce both sins (but see note below.)

3. According to Nachalas Yaakov, you pronounce it with 2 sins until Parashas Pinchas, and starting from Pinchas, it would be Yissachar.

4. According to Chassam Sofer, you pronounce it with two sins only the first time, and afterwards it would be Yissachar.

NOTE: BUT according to dikduk (Hebrew grammar), if you say that you need to pronounce the two sins, it would be YIS- SA -CHAR. It would never be Yissaschar.
(There are several dikduk rules for this which I won't go into now, unless someone asks me to. )

Continue reading if you are interested in the reasons behind #3 and #4.

-The Nachalas Yaakov brings that the reason why we switch by Pinchas is because יששכר had a son name Yov, whose name was changed to Yashuv in Parashas Pinchas. The reason it was changed is because Yov was the name of an avoda Zara, so יששכר gave him the extra "sin" from his name. So Yov became Yoshuv and from that point on, we call יששכר ,Yissachar.

-The Chasam Sofer's minhag was to pronounce two sins just the first time. Why?
He says that the reason we don't pronounce the second sin is because it recalls the story of the dudaim, where Leah "rented" Yaakov for the night in exchange for the dudaim. Since we would rather not publicize that, we drop the second sin. However, the Chassam Sofer says we should use the second sin just the first time because that was actually his name, even if we don't want to memorialize the renting of his father by his mother.

Rabbi Glatstien also mentioned the opinion of Tosfos, the Minchas Shai (considered to be the final word in dikduk) the Ba'al Haturim, the Noda B'Yehuda, the Steipler, Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov and other lesser known people, who all weigh in on this question.

Also: According to the Yemenites, who are known to have the purest mesora, they never heard of anything but "Yissachar. "
Same goes to the Sefardim.

According to the B'nei Yehuda, it was always Yissachar in Poland, and he never heard otherwise until he came to Prague.

He did mention the B'nei Yisoscher, who everyone calls "Yisoscher". He didn't explain definitively how it came to be , but he said that Yis- Sa- Char is a tongue-twister, so it probably morphed into Yisoscher because of that.

(I was honestly hoping he would mention the fact that the Belzer Rebbes spell their name ישכר, but he didn't. )

If you are still reading, I would again encourage you to listen to the shiur because I only gave the highlights. Smile

https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....96384

To be honest, I haven't checked back on this post until now and just saw your comment. This was so helpful and so interesting, thank you!

b.chadash

Tue, Apr 06 2021, 11:23 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

To be honest, I haven't checked back on this post until now and just saw your comment. This was so helpful and so interesting, thank you!

Pleasure.
Funny that you haven't checked back. Your question spawned 5 pages of discussion:)

amother

Tue, Apr 06 2021, 11:28 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Pleasure.
Funny that you haven't checked back. Your question spawned 5 pages of discussion:)

To be very honest with you, I saw that there were tons of comments and just got a little overwhelmed by the idea of reading all of them so I stuck my head in the sand and didn't click on the post until now Smile

b.chadash

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:27 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I can hear that... so its good you came back in the end.

You said in your OP that you never heard it pronounced Yissachar. Did you ever hear of Rabbi Yissachar Frand?

amother

Seagreen

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 11:15 am

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