More than/ less than vs different but equal

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sushilover

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:18 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

Can we please just stop trying to justify comparisons???? Have we not learned enough from the other threads started today? WE ARE NOT THE JUDGES OF WHO IS MORE OR LESS

I'm confused. So it seems that you don't like the terms "more frum" or "less frum".
Personally, I don't care. Sure it over generalizes, but many terms do. I call someone who covers her sheitel or davens three times a day or is stringent about the laws of ribis, etc "more frum" than me. To me that doesn't imply that I think I am bad or flawed or less than.

But Ok, you do think it's offensive.
So what terms should we use instead? Are we not allowed to acknowledge that some people are more stringent than others?

I didn't read the other thread, so feel free to fill me in if I'm missing something from this conversation.

Ema of 5

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:21 pm

sushilover wrote:

We should not be judging anyone’s level of religiosity, at least not out loud. I tell my kids “they do things differently” or “they don’t do it the same way we do.” There is no implication that one is better than the other.

realsilver

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:31 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

But one can’t be doing more than another?
Skip the better

sushilover

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:33 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

I understand saying that to kids who see the world in more black and white terms. But when you are talking to adults, you can assume that they understand that you are talking about one aspect of someone without judging them as a person.

For example, I was talking to a guest about a shidduch and he said, "well, I think I need someone less religious". As adults, we all understood what he meant. He wasn't referring to how stringent his date is about tzar baalei chayim or hashavas aveida. It obvious he was talking about tznius and general stringency with bein adam lamakom mitzvos.
Would you say that his comment was offensive in some way?

Ema of 5

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:21 pm

realsilver wrote:

But one can’t be doing more than another?
Skip the better

That’s not what the conversation was about. Of course some can do more and some can do less. My issue is with the insinuation that those who do less (based solely on physical appearance, and generally this is referring to MO woman) are less frum than those who do more (generally yeshivish/right wing, and again solely based on appearances)

Ema of 5

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:34 pm

sushilover wrote:

His comment was made in private, meant for a purpose. It was not said in public, in a disparaging, “I’m better than you” way, which is generally how it’s said here.

imasinger

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:44 pm

Eilu v'eilu.

I'll take Chabad as an example, though there are plenty of others. I just think they do this particularly well.

Recognizing that every Jew has a special gift that Hashem and the world needed is the starting place.

Whereas dismissing others who still accept Torah, and live as best they can by their educated understanding of its laws, but are not on the same derech, is not okay.

For those who do not accept Torah as law, that's a different discussion.

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:54 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

The who and the what?????

Professor got it. Kulanu Yehudim is an ensemble song from the movie Kazablan. (Starring Yehoram Gaon. If you're not keeping sefira yet, google his name + Milchama Ha'Acharona, Mei'al Pisgat Har Hartzofim, among other songs.)

juggling

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:19 am

realsilver wrote:

But one can’t be doing more than another?
Skip the better

Right, that's what I said. People are reading judgement into terminology that makes sense. Someone who keeps a more stringent practice can be called *more* religiously observant (ie frum). That shouldn't need to imply judgement that someone being "more" is necessarily "better."

Nobody should be judging anyone else's religious level, that's between them and Hashem. But I don't think it's wrong to use the term "more" or "less". With no judgement.

essie14

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:21 am

How do you know how many mitzvot someone is doing? Shouldn't that be between each person and God. Why does anyone have to qualify how Frum another person is?

juggling

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:32 am

essie14 wrote:

How do you know how many mitzvot someone is doing? Shouldn't that be between each person and God. Why does anyone have to qualify how Frum another person is?

No, of course you don't know. The double-hatted chasidish woman may be eating pig when no one is looking. That part is between each person and God. But the lifestyle a person portrays to the world may sometimes need to be described in words. I don't think it needs to imply judgement.

chick567

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 4:51 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

OP wrote “however, if you have a person who keeps 10 mitzvos and ignores the rest, and you compare him to a person who keeps 230 mitzvos and ignores the rest, the person who keeps more mitzvos should be called more frum.”
Again, the assumption that an MO woman does less than a yeshivish or chareidi or yeshivish woman. Why? Because of how she dresses. Her intention might have been as you say, but her words make a comparison. Unless you want to tell me that she didn’t mean the MO woman is the one doing 10 mitzvos and the yeshivish/chareidi/chassidish woman is actually the one doing 10.

why do you assume that I assumed the MO person belonged with the 10 mitzvos, and the yeshivish person with the 230? I did not.
I never said or implied or meant that.

I also was intentionally not assigning labels, because the purpose of the example is that the label doesn't matter, the mitzva keeping behaviour is what matters. It wouldn't matter if you reversed the labels either. The MO one could be keeping 230 and the yeshivish one could be the 10. It still wouldn't matter.

The labels MO- Yeshivish- Chassidish whatever don't say anything about more than or less than in terms of religion. They are only a name for the hashkafa the person uses to live their life by.

More than/ less than labels only apply in terms of more mitzvos, less mitzvos.

The woman who davens and learns everyday for an hour as compared to the woman who gives tzedaka, visits the sick, and cooks meals for those in need for an hour a day, are both equally frum, as long as everything else was the same.
But the woman who davens and learns and cooks and visits the sick and gives tzedaka for 4 hours a day is more frum than the woman who does none of those.

Over the course of a lifetime everyone has their ups and downs. The point is to strive to be the best we can be, when we can.

eta: Please keep in mind that I never once used the word "better" in this conversation. Better than/ worse than was not part of it at all. No person can presume to know who is better in Hashem eyes and shouldn't dare to try.

b.chadash

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 4:57 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Here is actually a perfect example of something that some people keep and others dont Wink

Some people dont keep sefira?

tigerwife

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 5:41 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Some people dont keep sefira?

Some people hold the second half of sefira, which starts on R”Ch. Others keep from Pesach until Lag B’Omer. Our minhag is to keep the entire thing, that must make me the frummest 😆

I am referring to weddings, music, and new clothes, not counting.

b.chadash

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 5:45 pm

tigerwife wrote:

We keep the second half as well.

But she said some people keep it and some don't. So I wasn't sure what she meant.
Does she not keep sefira? Or does she not hold that listening to music is a problem? Maybe only live music is a problem? I'm not sure what she meant.

singleagain

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 6:06 pm

I listen to recorded music during sefira.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 5:18 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Some people dont keep sefira?

Some hold that listening to music in your own home is fine. (please dont turn this into a machloket. This is what I learned, as Im sure others as well)

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 5:22 pm

singleagain wrote:

I listen to recorded music during sefira.

This too. We hold that live concerts or going to movies is not allowed, but that at home or in the car, whatever, rcorded, is allowed.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 5:23 pm

b.chadash wrote:

I meant listening to music.

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