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If Hashem doesn't want women like me, why did He create me?
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:11 am
Amother paperflower, your comment was so helpful.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:13 am
I can't just "be Rebbetzin Gottlieb" because I am busy with Parnassa and don't have leftover time/energy. Also, there isn't a demand for that kind of teaching over here.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:13 am
Sometimes I think it’s more of a personality thing, and families attitudes towards valuing such traits differs based on the personality makeup of the family.
I grew up feeling like my depth, creativity desire for learning mattered, was wonderful and I got validation for it ( not so much the dreaminess , lol)
My father and most of my siblings are strong intuitives though.

My husbands family is a different story and even though externally our families seem similar, it was a massive culture shock for me.

As an aside, I don’t think there is a culture as a whole that values the qualities you mention as much as Judaism does.

(Ok, Judaism is not a culture. Didn’t know how else to phrase it.)
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amother
Green


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:22 am
"Find your people"

I feel like this line is the crux of the issue for those like us. I'm in Monsey, and there's no way to find my people. Everyone is buried in their own lives, holed up in their homes and families and busy trying to look and sound normal when they do go out, especially at this stage of raising young children. The externals matter so much that there's no way to get past them.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:29 am
People like you and me won’t find ourselves in any society. Society at large values most of the things you mentioned.
It’s a sensing, external-valuing world we live in.
Stop trying to change the things you cannot change and focus on your own happiness.
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STMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:29 am
I can relate OP. Reading the books by Elaine Aron and Ted Zeff helped me realize why the world was not made for people like you and me and how I needed to create and hold a space where I could be myself like my life depends on it, because it does.
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paperflowers




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:42 am
amother [ Coral ] wrote:
Sometimes I think it’s more of a personality thing, and families attitudes towards valuing such traits differs based on the personality makeup of the family.


Yup.
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zigi




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 8:53 am
A friend of mine gives a shiur over zoom so it's not bound by location, but interest.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:11 am
I think it was ami that had an article about this recently, and I thought Baila Vorhand answered it well. I think she would be a good person to speak to.
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paperflowers




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:14 am
zigi wrote:
A friend of mine gives a shiur over zoom so it's not bound by location, but interest.


This reminded me, you can sign up for Partners in Torah.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:30 am
OP, I hear you. I moved to Monsey over 20 years ago. It was a huge culture shock. There bh are a handful of t learned women in my neighborhood community who are advanced level teachers and give shiurim locally and I somewhat relate to them, I even contribute as I can. I'm a practical minded person, and probably less introverted or internally focused than you. Its still hard to find intellectual, learning based women. Even the available larger Monsey shiurim are not geared to me, and I had tried many. I couldn't travel to shiurim but covid and zoom, YU Torah, Torah Anytime have been amazing. I use local shiurim as entertainment, cultural study and as jump off points for my own study by writing down what resonates or intrigues me, then researching them.

I now have a weekly phone based chevrusa, who's an old college friend with different hashkafa than I find here.

I keep a journal, ask myself my big Qs and let my pen answer them. How about asking yourself the questions you presented here as a prompt? I think you're probably more in tune to what you need then you are aware of right now.

Good luck, and stay true to yourself. An authentic striving human being is the biggest blessing for your children, your community, Hashem and frankly, the world.
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ssspectacular




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:42 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I am a mother with a personality that is dreamy, creative, loves being with children or my house in an unrushed manner, loves solitude, loves learning, loves thinking, loves giving over ideas. I am part of a society (and marriage) that values women who are: strong as a horse, great with externals such as dressing the kids, thrive on multitasking, able to transcend their own physical and mental needs such as sleep, don't think too much, don't feel too much, are comfortable being ignorant about that own religion while relying on men to be the knowledgeable authorities.

This is so painful for me, and speaking to therapists, rebbetzins, and rabbanim has only left me feeling more misunderstood and unneeded.

Where do I go from here?

Wow! OP I can relate to every word. But I am much older and wiser now and I will share with you that you MUST take care of yourself in a way that fits your personality whether that pleases other people or not. This is a serious issue that can really hurt you in the long run. I did not have the strength to make serious changes in my life and woke up in therapy in my 40s with a major depression. In the therapist's office, I kept saying, I've been living somebody else's life. This is not who I am! The pain and regret were very deep. I made huge changes at that time, but why wait so long? I am in Brooklyn and if you want to connect, I will be glad to talk to you. (or anyone interested in this topic)
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:51 am
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:
It's not child abuse for a stable family to move 1-2 times.

Please don't disrespect those who suffered actual child abuse, whether due to moving or otherwise.


I don't know if the word is abuse, but culture shocking children because you want something to feed some emotional desire is not good parenting. What if OPs children don't even speak English? How could she move them to a city with no Yiddish? It's the same thing with people who do the opposite. Those parents are selfish. Often times the children don't fit in socially and aren't accepted by their peers, teachers and community, which adds to the pain of the children. Furthermore, these people usually decide to make some other life change and flip flop back from one extreme to another at their children's expense or continue down the dark path to OTD.

OP does not sound like this though. She just sounds like she needs to find a way to appreciate herself and attend to her needs within her own community, which is part of her identity.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 11:30 am
nchr wrote:
I don't know if the word is abuse, but culture shocking children because you want something to feed some emotional desire is not good parenting. What if OPs children don't even speak English? How could she move them to a city with no Yiddish? It's the same thing with people who do the opposite. Those parents are selfish. Often times the children don't fit in socially and aren't accepted by their peers, teachers and community, which adds to the pain of the children. Furthermore, these people usually decide to make some other life change and flip flop back from one extreme to another at their children's expense or continue down the dark path to OTD.

OP does not sound like this though. She just sounds like she needs to find a way to appreciate herself and attend to her needs within her own community, which is part of her identity.
There are ways to do this in a balanced way with nobody’s needs being sacrificed. It does require a lot of thought and planning and guidance.
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amother
Black


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 3:41 pm
I was also thinking of Baila Vorhand from Boro Park. She wrote some beautiful books and sound like a real intellectual deep thinker. You definitely should contact her. I think shes quite young with a bunch of little kids.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 4:09 pm
ssspectacular wrote:
Wow! OP I can relate to every word. But I am much older and wiser now and I will share with you that you MUST take care of yourself in a way that fits your personality whether that pleases other people or not. This is a serious issue that can really hurt you in the long run. I did not have the strength to make serious changes in my life and woke up in therapy in my 40s with a major depression. In the therapist's office, I kept saying, I've been living somebody else's life. This is not who I am! The pain and regret were very deep. I made huge changes at that time, but why wait so long? I am in Brooklyn and if you want to connect, I will be glad to talk to you. (or anyone interested in this topic)

I’m in a similar boat in my 40’s saying the same thing
Is there anything you can share? Anything about the changes you’ve made. I’m so scared but I’m stifled...
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 5:28 pm
ssspectacular wrote:
Wow! OP I can relate to every word. But I am much older and wiser now and I will share with you that you MUST take care of yourself in a way that fits your personality whether that pleases other people or not. This is a serious issue that can really hurt you in the long run. I did not have the strength to make serious changes in my life and woke up in therapy in my 40s with a major depression. In the therapist's office, I kept saying, I've been living somebody else's life. This is not who I am! The pain and regret were very deep. I made huge changes at that time, but why wait so long? I am in Brooklyn and if you want to connect, I will be glad to talk to you. (or anyone interested in this topic)

I'd love to hear more. I will PM you.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:01 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I am a mother with a personality that is dreamy, creative, loves being with children or my house in an unrushed manner, loves solitude, loves learning, loves thinking, loves giving over ideas. I am part of a society (and marriage) that values women who are: strong as a horse, great with externals such as dressing the kids, thrive on multitasking, able to transcend their own physical and mental needs such as sleep, don't think too much, don't feel too much, are comfortable being ignorant about that own religion while relying on men to be the knowledgeable authorities.

This is so painful for me, and speaking to therapists, rebbetzins, and rabbanim has only left me feeling more misunderstood and unneeded.

Where do I go from here?


Hashem created all types of people.

But I think people who are intellectual, deep thinkers and love to learn are more likely
to build a strong relationship with Hashem.

Are there no shiurim for women in your community?

There are shiurim online. And great Jewish books on all types of subjects.

It may be you are too busy at this stage of life, but there are many years after the
kids are grown to learn.

It sounds like you need a friend who is your type and don't have one.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 9:27 pm
Zehava wrote:
People like you and me won’t find ourselves in any society. Society at large values most of the things you mentioned.
It’s a sensing, external-valuing world we live in.
Stop trying to change the things you cannot change and focus on your own happiness.


Actually I don't find that to be true.

There's a big wide world out there, and once I left my little bubble I found a society that valued who I am and what I was capable of.

I think the advice to leave our community completely is not a great idea - every community has it's pluses and minuses and I may not find it helpful to give up what I value to join a community that may have values that I don't value. IOW I like many other things about my community and I am not willing to give them up.

We need to carve our own niche within our community, and perhaps we, all together, can change perceptions.
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silbergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:13 pm
I am the exact same way. I hate any household chores and I am not the best dresser (I can cook up a storm, though). My home is small with handed down furniture and messy. I need a lot of sleep, creative outlets and intellectual brain stimuli. I love doing crafts and activities with my child and some days I just keep her home from daycare because I enjoy spending time with her.

It is not that Hashem does not want us, to the contrary, he made plenty of women like us. Just the society has created a different image.
I was suffering tremendously from not fitting the cookie cutter mold, but I learned that just being myself is the healthiest approach. And surrounding myself with similar people (they are out there!).
And I learned that the "perfect" ones behind the scenes are not that "perfect", after all. Everybody has their own pekeleh to carry.

And on a side note, there are plenty of communities that value intellectual women, even in the haredi world.
Hey, I remember that Rebbetzin Heller-Gottlieb always freely admitted she hated all that household stuff. And she is one of the most brilliant and intellectual frum women of our time.

amother [ OP ] wrote:
I am a mother with a personality that is dreamy, creative, loves being with children or my house in an unrushed manner, loves solitude, loves learning, loves thinking, loves giving over ideas. I am part of a society (and marriage) that values women who are: strong as a horse, great with externals such as dressing the kids, thrive on multitasking, able to transcend their own physical and mental needs such as sleep, don't think too much, don't feel too much, are comfortable being ignorant about that own religion while relying on men to be the knowledgeable authorities.

This is so painful for me, and speaking to therapists, rebbetzins, and rabbanim has only left me feeling more misunderstood and unneeded.

Where do I go from here?
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