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Misinformation about wealthy/financially comfortable people
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:16 am
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
There are those who always say hashem yaazor. And then they are who says hashem yaazor and they are on such madreiga. Its easy to say but very difficult for most to really really have such an emuna.
There is a much space between relying on miracles and attitude 'koshi ve otzem yadi'


Agreed 100%. But there really is no space at all to say "I don't respect ppl that learn and don't have money." Ppl that learn always deserve our respect and hakaros hatov, regardless on their finances. If they are not being kind to their wives and family etc, that's a whole diff story again.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:19 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
I always hear this line of thinking. But never understand it.
What physical or emotional test or hardship do wealthy people have that poor people are immune from?
Poor people have Shalom Bayis issues, physical health, mental health, relationship, OTD, children, etc same like wealthy people.
You know what they don't have? The luxury to run after every treatment, every therapist, leaving no stones unturned.
You know what's more painful than having to admit your child into a psychiatric hospital or cancer ward in a hospital? Not being able to buy a pizza for the rest of the family because your credit card is maxed out.
You know what's more painful than watching your spouse or child deteriorate? Knowing that there exists treatment that can help, but it's not possible to get it because it's too expensive.


This thinking is why I hide our finances from others. It's so painful and hurtful. No, when we were in the hospital and noone knew what would be with my daughter, no pizza or credit card would help. This was the child we had begged Hashem for and had more than enough IVF. It doesn't help me move on from the abuse of my childhood either. My connection with hashem is what gives me this strength, not money. And my kids don't want the pizza, they want me and they want to make homemade pizza with me. I also grew up in poverty and we started marriage with only our commitments to each other and hashem. It isn't money, it's inner strength and our ability to connect to hashem that pulls us through, rich or poor. I've seen dead and living rich people and dead and living poor people. IMHO, the percentages are about the same.

Money doesn't make man live.

We aren't wealthy but we live very, very simply that our 200k salaries go far. However, it's this misconception of people with money that isn't fair. I don't think anyone's challenges can be compared by money because we don't understand the impact of any challenge on the individual. We can't judge people until we live their lives. At the end of the day, money is just a thing that can't be taken with you. Your connection with hashem, your spouse, your children, those are what I plan on taking with me to the next world.
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:19 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Not all of us consciously choose a lifestyle that makes us poor.
Personally we are not a kollel family. So I can't even piously say that I chose this lifestyle for the sake of Torah. I work hard. I try. But the frum lifestyle just demands an income that's beyond the capacity of most people to produce. It's not normal that you need to earn $150,000 minimum just to be in survival mode. It's not like I could just get another job or work a little harder in my current job. I'm already at my max.
And it doesn't really help when wealthy/comfortable people judge us or imply that if we had just been as smart and hardworking as they are we would be in the same place.
The only things I could change would be having fewer children and/or not sending them to yeshiva. And I know that some people do judge you for choosing to have a big family because duh, what did you think would happen.

Agree with everything.
My dh has told me all about living in the US with tuition etc etc. Dh says the US is only good if you have a successful business or you are a doctor lawyer etc etc. For the rest it's not the goldene Medina.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:23 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
It's obvioulsy a topic that needs a lot of discussion in order to gain clarity, and there are nuances as well, obviously. It's not all or nothing.

The premise is, that we work as hishtadlus only, and someone that has greater emunah and bitochon, needs to do less hishtadlus. And the more we believe that, the closer we are to HKBH. As I said, there are many aspects to this, but to say that you don't respect someone that is actually learning (not wasting time) and relies on miracles, is a great lack of emunah, and so many other things. I do not say this to put you down, I say this to bring clarity to this thread and maybe by some slight chance to inspire you to learn more and recognize why we are put on this world.

(If you would say, "I don't come from this world, so I don't understand it" or, "I am not on that level, but respect those that are", etc. I could understand. But just a blanket, "my husband works around the clock and made money by himself and I don't respect those that are learning without money...." Just know, that THEY are upholding the world, for only Torah keeps the world going, not money.

You’re right. I did not grow up in the yeshivish brainwashing system. I grew up with a father who kept up a strict routine of davening, learning, and working hard to support his family.
I don’t think the money my husband makes is purely because he works hard. We’ve seen so many miracles in his line of work when we spent for YT or give tzeddaka etc.
but I do think one has got to do hishtadlus and take responsibility.
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:27 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
Agreed 100%. But there really is no space at all to say "I don't respect ppl that learn and don't have money." Ppl that learn always deserve our respect and hakaros hatov, regardless on their finances. If they are not being kind to their wives and family etc, that's a whole diff story again.

Totally agree on this one! There is a reason why I live in the financially poorest city in Israel and it the same time the richest city too (Torah rich)
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:28 am
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
This thinking is why I hide our finances from others. It's so painful and hurtful. No, when we were in the hospital and noone knew what would be with my daughter, no pizza or credit card would help. This was the child we had begged Hashem for and had more than enough IVF. It doesn't help me move on from the abuse of my childhood either. My connection with hashem is what gives me this strength, not money. And my kids don't want the pizza, they want me and they want to make homemade pizza with me. I also grew up in poverty and we started marriage with only our commitments to each other and hashem. It isn't money, it's inner strength and our ability to connect to hashem that pulls us through, rich or poor. I've seen dead and living rich people and dead and living poor people. IMHO, the percentages are about the same.

Money doesn't make man live.

We aren't wealthy but we live very, very simply that our 200k salaries go far. However, it's this misconception of people with money that isn't fair. I don't think anyone's challenges can be compared by money because we don't understand the impact of any challenge on the individual. We can't judge people until we live their lives. At the end of the day, money is just a thing that can't be taken with you. Your connection with hashem, your spouse, your children, those are what I plan on taking with me to the next world.


I hear. But when you're standing in the hospital after hearing devastating news, and you can't afford to take a cab so you have to walk 30 minutes, that's adding that much more pain. And when a family gets a hospital bill that will cripple them, and a funeral home bill, and they can't even afford to pay for the medical attention that their child died at, that's pain beyond imaginable.

It's not like only rich people suffer from abuse and death. Poor people also, and they have to spend so much of their time, energy and capabilities on things that a wealthy person swipes the card and now has the ability to focus just on living.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:28 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You’re right. I did not grow up in the yeshivish brainwashing system. I grew up with a father who kept up a strict routine of davening, learning, and working hard to support his family.
I don’t think the money my husband makes is purely because he works hard. We’ve seen so many miracles in his line of work when we spent for YT or give tzeddaka etc.
but I do think one has got to do hishtadlus and take responsibility.


the point is that a person making, say, in the $75,000-150,000 range IS doing hishtadlus. They ARE taking responsibility! And in most of the US that's considered a perfectly respectable income! It's only in the frum community that it makes you impoverished.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:31 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
the point is that a person making, say, in the $75,000-150,000 range IS doing hishtadlus. They ARE taking responsibility! And in most of the US that's considered a perfectly respectable income! It's only in the frum community that it makes you impoverished.

100%
I wasn’t talking about income here at all, but about work, about trying. That is all.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:41 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You’re right. I did not grow up in the yeshivish brainwashing system. I grew up with a father who kept up a strict routine of davening, learning, and working hard to support his family.
I don’t think the money my husband makes is purely because he works hard. We’ve seen so many miracles in his line of work when we spent for YT or give tzeddaka etc.
but I do think one has got to do hishtadlus and take responsibility.


And I grew up the same way. BUT, my father has the GREATEST respect for gedolim, and Torah. There are diff ways to live. And I am not on the level to not do hishtadlus, but you must believe and know in the deepest part of your heart, that it is all a mirage. That someone that learns lshem shamayim, is holding up the world with mesirus nefesh. There are diff levels of living. They are living on a higher plane. You MUST recognize that.

As as R' Avigdor Miller would say (something like it) that perhaps your brain needs a washing. We are living among the non jews for so very long, that we don't know what is true and not true any longer.

You will gain tremendously if you begin to realize this. And I am literally talking to myself here. I wish I believed this truly and deeply.
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amother
Red


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 11:53 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
And I grew up the same way. BUT, my father has the GREATEST respect for gedolim, and Torah. There are diff ways to live. And I am not on the level to not do hishtadlus, but you must believe and know in the deepest part of your heart, that it is all a mirage. That someone that learns lshem shamayim, is holding up the world with mesirus nefesh. There are diff levels of living. They are living on a higher plane. You MUST recognize that.

As as R' Avigdor Miller would say (something like it) that perhaps your brain needs a washing. We are living among the non jews for so very long, that we don't know what is true and not true any longer.

You will gain tremendously if you begin to realize this. And I am literally talking to myself here. I wish I believed this truly and deeply.

Your posts deserve 10,000 likes, Slateblue.

עולם הפוך ראיתי
תחתונים למעלה ועליונים למטה

People are, unfortunately, very confused.
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Crookshanks




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 12:00 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Your posts deserve 10,000 likes, Slateblue.

עולם הפוך ראיתי
תחתונים למעלה ועליונים למטה

People are, unfortunately, very confused.

I wish I could like these two posts more.
(And I wish that you'd post them under your screen name.)
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 1:09 pm
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
I hear. But when you're standing in the hospital after hearing devastating news, and you can't afford to take a cab so you have to walk 30 minutes, that's adding that much more pain. And when a family gets a hospital bill that will cripple them, and a funeral home bill, and they can't even afford to pay for the medical attention that their child died at, that's pain beyond imaginable.

It's not like only rich people suffer from abuse and death. Poor people also, and they have to spend so much of their time, energy and capabilities on things that a wealthy person swipes the card and now has the ability to focus just on living.


For you, yes, personally, it's a second blow after the first. For you, yes, it would make the first blow less hard. We can't frame what would make things easier for us personally as a tayna on rich people. For all we know, the rich guy had a different second blow that was equally hard. We just don't know hashems calculations and we can't say it was easier for them because they have money. We can say it would be easier for me to deal with this challenge with money. It's not a tayna on them rather it would be helpful to you.

When I was growing up, we were taught in our house to see the world through the lens of 'if only we could swipe a card, the problem would go away.' As an adult, I know that what would make things better or harder is truly based on the individual and hashem takes that into account with every single challenge that He chooses for us. Sometimes, money is helpful and sometimes not, it depends on the person.

When a niece/nephew of mine was sick, I saw that money would lessen the blow to the parents so I gave them a check to cover parking, gas, and any time off that was required for a year because I knew that for them, it would matter. But a different sibling had something come up where money was of no consequence so instead I kept calling to check in. We have to see every challenge from an individual perspective rather than a complaint against someone who has what would make it easier for us. It comes down to God.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 2:25 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
We struggled for many years. We still have quite a bit of debt that we are still paying off. But we are now making enough where we were told that we can give tzedekah. I help my friends without them knowing. Or I go through someone else to get them the money. I mean it can't give them a ton of money because I'm not wealthy. But even then I want to help them as much as I can. Like before Pesach I was able to give them each a few thousand shekels. We just did some construction so I feel like I probably think why did you do this work and not help me when really I did but they have no idea. Like I said I know it wasn't a huge amount but compared to the fact that we were not surviving without family help a year ago this is pretty huge that we could now help others. I hope one day I'll be tested with a lot of wealth. I definitely have seen a big increase in our income once we started giving tzedekah. Like I said we really didn't have to 100% because we had so much debt but we were told that we would see a lot of bracha If we did. And we are able to put money towards our debt as well.


I agree 100% we got married and only I was working. from my income we had enough to pay rent and meiser and thats it. my husband had freelance jobs and bh we managed. I kept telling dh that we probably qualify for tzedaka we for definitely dont have to give meiser. he insisted and said well only see brocha from giving meiser cuz thats what hashem said to do.
bh we saw tremendous brocha since then bh we now cover our expenses comftorably (we are still a small family) and are putting away money each month to
I
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