how many kids do you have?

GAMZu

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 7:49 pm

cassandra wrote:

Do you have a "natural parenting" club where you sit around talking about how wonderful it is that you know people who choose to go to doctors with high c/section rates because it is their personal preference? Please.

No, we don't have such a club, but I do belong to such a forum, and we don't sit around talking about others' choices to have c-secs or whatever. We talk more about our own choices and preferences and stuff like that.

Maybe there are people who measure their self-worth by their birth choices, by the amount of kids they birthed, by choosing to have a c-section in the 8th month to prevent stretch marks, by cooking the entire shabbos on Thursday, but it's not the majority of people. Most people don't measure their self worth by those things.

cassandra

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 7:57 pm

And I would hope most people don't measure their self worth by the quantity of children they have birthed either.

You say that you don't define yourself by your type of birth, yet you participate in a natural birth forum. I would surmise that participating in a forum about something shows that you identify very strongly with it. If it was a matter of choice and nothing else, why the need to discuss it so much? Obviously you feel it is a part of you and you like talking about it, if only to pat each other on the back.

And one more thing: when natural birth proponents on this stop posting anti-c/section articles around here I'll believe the whole "personal choice" thing. (BTW, I fully intended a natural birth with my first child, but it didn't work out. I am sympathetic to the choice, but I do believe that some natural birth advocates are kind of militant because they think it is best, and they think that if everyone were as "enlightened" as they are and knew all the "facts" they would come to the same decision.)

GAMZu

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 8:08 pm

Quote:

And I would hope most people don't measure their self worth by the quantity of children they have birthed either.

Exactly. This poll was just that- a poll. But you brought "self-worth" into it.

The forum is not only about childbirth. It's about parenting. Yes, it's a personal preference, it's a lifestyle that I chose for myself and enjoy sharing experiences with people who chose the same.
Same as the "due date clubs" and private forums on this site. I don't think ppl measure their self-worth by being over 35, being due in a certain month, living in Israel, or having lost a family member. It's just one aspect of their lives, and it's enjoyable to have others share those aspects with you.

chavamom

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 8:48 pm

cassandra wrote:

when natural birth proponents on this stop posting anti-c/section articles around here I'll believe the whole "personal choice" thing.

Sigh. B/c we know there are no problems from c/sec's, right? Stop. We all know there are legitimate reasons for c/sec's. But even the MEDICAL COMMUNITY is (for the most part) in agreement that the rate is too high, it is too liberally used and there CAN be major complications - esp. in future pregnancies. Women shouldn't be made aware of this????? You are certainly allowed your "personal choice" but if you are educated about the risks/benefits then you really should have no issue with someone post "anti-c/sec articles". You made your choice. Let the info be out there so others can make their informed decisions as well.

cassandra

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:06 pm

Wow. You people really do take this stuff seriously. I think this whole thing is absurd and I probably shouldn't respond, but I do have to say this:

Do you think all women are idiots that they need to have articles about high c/section rates shoved down their throats? Do you think that they can't use the very same internet browser that they use to access imamother to find information about childbirth if they wanted to? You bring the articles because you believe that one way is superior to the other and you think everyone should know this. So tell it like it is and stop all the personal choice garbage. It is highly condescending.

And by the way, not all of us have the luxury to make a choice. I'm absolutely fine with my births even though they didn't end up the way I would have liked them to before I had any kids at all, but I don't really care. But it bothers me to no end that many women feel guilty about having had c/sections, even if there is a chance they could have prevented it. Not all women are ob nurses or spend their free time reading about the medicalization of birth. They have jobs and lives and other interests and they rely on medical professionals for those issues. So what exactly are they gaining by you monday morning quarterbacking their births?

chavamom

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:19 pm

I'm glad that women saw fit to fill me in on some of the issues surrounding the medicalization of childbirth when I was pregnant with my first. This was before the widespread use of internet and before I was an OB nurse, but you know, I thought an elective induction sounded like a great idea back then. And if all my friends were doing it, well, why not? Boy am I glad someone pointed me in the direction of other info. For someone who is "absolutely fine" with their births, there sure is a lot of venom behind your posts.

cassandra

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:23 pm

There is venom because I don't like people who claim their intentions to be one thing when it really is another. If you believe that one way is better than another than you don't believe in choice. People who believe in choice for abortions don't go handing out pamphlets showing pictures of aborted fetuses outside abortion clinics so that the people have a true choice. To me, choice is the ability to seek out information for yourself (especially when information is so accessible today) rather than having that information rammed down your throat.

chavamom

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:27 pm

Hmm - I think you really don't read my posts all that carefully, or have a grabbag notion that groups together "all those natural birth posters". I doubt there is much chance I'll change your mind about how you feel here so not much point in arguing. But I think your posts on this thread have shown you've got a definite chip on your shoulder about more than just how many children people have!

cassandra

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:29 pm

I didn't group all natural birth proponents together, Gamzu did when she stated that "nobody who believes in natural birth defines themselves by it"

I don't have chip about births. I have a chip about self-righteousness.

Last edited by cassandra on Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 9:55 pm

I actually like the poll. I don't think we've ever gotten so many votes on a single poll on Imamother. I think that's interesting.

And if you're counting quantity, there might not be much of a difference between a family of 5 and a family of 6, but there sure is a difference in a family of 3 and a family of 12.

amother

Sat, Mar 08 2008, 10:15 pm

I voted zero, since a kid is a baby goat, and as much as I would like to have 4 or 12, current zoning regulations prevent me from doing so. Maybe if I earned more money I could get a good lawyer to fight the regulations, so I see how asking how much money I make has a lot to do with how many kids I have.

chavamom

Sun, Mar 09 2008, 12:21 am

amother wrote:

Hey, on our moshav our neighbors really DID have a goat, and it had a baby...so maybe the poll was really directed at all the "amothers" who live on moshavim???

gold21

Sun, Mar 09 2008, 1:21 am

Yeah people do, well at least in my "circles", make a huge thing out of what kind of labor-delivery experience they had. Like my very yeshivish cousin had a baby like 6 weeks after I did, and she was all mortified when I asked her how it went. Why?..cuz she ended up needing an epidural. Gasp. I was like laughing to myself cuz she and my aunt (who is a doula and a nurse on labor-delivery floor) were chatting about how upsetting it was that she got an epidural, even tho she was already dilated to 8 cm at the time, and she had tried everything else to help her along such as showers etc, and she simply couldn't function anymore without painkillers...etc
And I'm like Oh man..cuz I was induced and got an epidural as soon as labor was established. I was dilated at 1 cm.
And I dunno I just don't feel embarrassed about my choice. Not at all. I'm totally cool with the fact that I was on epidural before I had any really serious contractions going on.
Anyhow yeah ppl are very into not getting epidurals or c-section, as if those of us who have chosen to get epidural or c-section are lesser mothers. And I don't get that cuz I think I am a very dedicated and loving mom bli ayin hora.

About having lotsa kids tho, I don't sense as much hype.

Ruchel

Sun, Mar 09 2008, 9:40 am

Quote:

You say that you don't define yourself by your type of birth, yet you participate in a natural birth forum. I would surmise that participating in a forum about something shows that you identify very strongly with it. If it was a matter of choice and nothing else, why the need to discuss it so much? Obviously you feel it is a part of you and you like talking about it, if only to pat each other on the back.

More than that, I think it’s because they’re bashed irl and need to hear about others. It’s true that people aren’t nice to them either…
But definitely some define themselves by it. Especially those who have a whole philosophy around it. Not just “I find intervention dangerous so I don’t want it”, but “it’s a good kind of suffering”, “I’m in pain but not suffering, anyway”, “the most important thing is to be able to bond” (by bonding they mean very precise things like immediate nursing, pacifier being evil, skin against skin and no bath… as if it mattered so much on the long run!).
Or those who think it’s anti Torah to not give birth and nurse like 500 years ago…and if you are honest and your rav about it, they say your rav is non jewish LOL

I can understand being devastated because your birth lead to painful intervention and nasty PP. But if it's not the case, for example just an epidural, I can't even understand why it's sad. If everything turned well, why make a whole drama because you didn't want or couldn't suffer anymore? why is suffering such a beautiful thing to some?

I personally don’t mind the articles, even if I don’t relate well and don’t trust biased sites (= probably all, in a way or another).