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Last week's Double Take (Mishpacha mag)
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amother
Outerspace


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 10:48 am
The camp didn't handle the older daughter well. Mom knew that. The story threw in a note as to why she tried to send the younger one there- something about only being able to have an build confidence if she went with her group of friends, and that's where they were going. But really, with a camp behaving the way they did, and her only advocate gone, trying to send there, and relying on it, was not wise. Because a) the real possibility of them not taking her, and b) trusting them with this child, when they failed her with the other.
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amother
Eggplant


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 10:56 am
amother [ Outerspace ] wrote:
The camp didn't handle the older daughter well. Mom knew that. The story threw in a note as to why she tried to send the younger one there- something about only being able to have an build confidence if she went with her group of friends, and that's where they were going. But really, with a camp behaving the way they did, and her only advocate gone, trying to send there, and relying on it, was not wise. Because a) the real possibility of them not taking her, and b) trusting them with this child, when they failed her with the other.

Disagree. The camp handled it fine. The mom handled the situation very poorly
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 11:09 am
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
So camps and schools need to accept kids that break the rules and are a bad influence on other kids?
Parents aren't doing their kids a favor by placing them in a school or camp where they don't belong and feel stifled.


The problem is that we don't have any grey areas for our children. It's either you toe the line or you're out. I don't think the mother handled it properly, but she acted out of desperation. What resources are available for parents, when a child fights conformity? If she'd bring that daughter home, it would have ended her yiddishkeit right then and there. What mother wouldn't take it to the extreme to try to help out her kid? At that point in time, she couldn't take in consideration her other kids. It was a make it a break it moment for this one daughter, and she gave it her all. She deserves commendation.

As for the camp, I'm on the fence about it. They handled it in an ok manner, but they could have extended themselves a bit. Have a serious sit down with the kid and family, ask for advice from Daas Torah, or put her on probation for a couple of days (quietly and unassumingly). Despite having to protect all the other kids, they also had a responsibility to this kid. No one kid is disposable.

My takeaway from this article is that it highlights how fragile our educational system is. We are operating in a defense mode, that any outside exposure, no matter how slight is, can upend it. We don't trust our chinuch, so we must protect it from all sides. So much so, that we draw a thick black line in the sand, and if anyone so much steps off it, we'd rather bury them than give a helping hand. We are operating out of fear, rather than confidence and pride.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 11:59 am
Catmint I think your very on target but I wonder if its parenting or the school? As a parent I feel like as much as I want my kids to go to x y or z camp or school or yeshiva etc its not about me. Its about the kid and what best suits them. Some times this means making some really really really hard choices. But thats being a parent.

Maybe I see things differently because I dont live in an east coast community but are there no camps that offer a frum environment with less rules? Why could the mother not find a camp that was more of her daughters speed? She could have had a happy summer in a more positive environment.
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 12:07 pm
mha3484 wrote:
Catmint I think your very on target but I wonder if its parenting or the school? As a parent I feel like as much as I want my kids to go to x y or z camp or school or yeshiva etc its not about me. Its about the kid and what best suits them. Some times this means making some really really really hard choices. But thats being a parent.

Maybe I see things differently because I dont live in an east coast community but are there no camps that offer a frum environment with less rules? Why could the mother not find a camp that was more of her daughters speed? She could have had a happy summer in a more positive environment.


It's a tricky situation here on the East Coast. If you apply to a camp that's quite different than your upbringing, you're very likely not to be accepted. The assumption is that you're applying to this camp because there are underlying problems, and they don't want to deal with that. Other camps have limited space, and newcomers aren't easily accepted either.

Another thing to consider here is that the schools have to approve your camp choice. If they feel that the camp would have introduced outside influences to the child, they may not accept them back the following year.

And then there's the obvious - girls want to go to camp with their friends.
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amother
Outerspace


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 12:10 pm
amother [ Eggplant ] wrote:
Disagree. The camp handled it fine. The mom handled the situation very poorly


If I remember correctly, they simply called to say she was being sent home. They didn't call the parents with a warning, or talk to the girl with a warning. It's complicated, as these things usually are. But even if WE think the camp was right and mom was wrong, SHE thinks camp was wrong. So why send the next one there? Why trust them?
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 12:14 pm
amother [ Outerspace ] wrote:
If I remember correctly, they simply called to say she was being sent home. They didn't call the parents with a warning, or talk to the girl with a warning. It's complicated, as these things usually are. But even if WE think the camp was right and mom was wrong, SHE thinks camp was wrong. So why send the next one there? Why trust them?


Because this girl is a very good girl who is toeing the line completely, so she doesn't expect any trouble. And this girl wants to go where all her friends are going, and not be the strange outsider with no friends at any other camp.
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amother
Magnolia


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 12:15 pm
As usual the issue was miscommunication.
As soon as the mother heard her daughter was being an issue she should have called a meeting with the director, involving a counselor to mediate and figure out how to make it work.
By being uncooperative and risking sending her daughter in a place she didn't belong, she knew she's placing the next daughters chances in jeopardy.
This was fully the mother's fault.
No one wants to deal with entitled uncooperative people.


Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Catmint


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 12:22 pm
SafeAtLast wrote:
As usual the issue was miscommunication.
As soon as the mother heard her daughter was being an issue she should have called a meeting with the director, involving a counselor to mediate and figure out how to make it work.
By being uncooperative and risking sending her daughter in a place she didn't belong, she knew she's placing the next daughters chances in jeopardy.
This was fully the mother's fault.
No one wants to deal with entitled uncooperative people.


Miscommunication was on both ends. You don't send a secretary to be the middleman in a situation where you're expelling someone from camp. She shouldn't even have been involved in this. The director, higher-ups and even a Rav should have handled this situation quietly and discreetly. Even if they stood by their decision and expelled her, privacy would have been maintained.
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amother
Outerspace


 

Post Fri, Jun 18 2021, 12:30 pm
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
Because this girl is a very good girl who is toeing the line completely, so she doesn't expect any trouble. And this girl wants to go where all her friends are going, and not be the strange outsider with no friends at any other camp.


I get that. But when you don't trust an institution to handle your kids right, it's really hard to send back. Especially when the mom's big issue is the lack of communication- there's a lot of things that could go wrong that have nothing to do with good or bad.

I feel like if they had actually sent the older one home, she would have been too mad to send the next one. But because they didn't, she may think they became understanding. That's all I got.

This is personal to me. I had a dd in a high school that did not treat her right when she had some complications (not religious or behavioral.) They didn't kick her out- they had no grounds. But I'm pretty sure they were hoping we would switch her out. For a variety of reasons, it made more sense to keep her where she was than move her, and we slogged through. But I did not even apply with my next girl, even though she had no complications. Because I don't trust them. Even with friends there, I won't do it. (Thankfully she's very happy where she is.)
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shanie5




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 8:10 pm
Ididn't read the article, but from what I am reading here, both mom and camp were wrong. Total lack of communication!

1- Mom should have discussed the problems with the camp beforehand and together they could have come up with a plan of action.

2-Camp should have called the mom when they realized there were issues-not waited until the girl influenced enough girls to kick her out.

3-When camp called mom to tell her to come get her dd, mom should have at least explained to them why she couldn't/wouldn't do that.

4-Camps usually have Rabbi's and advisors they discuss things with. They sould have been consulted and the Head of the camp, the Rabbi or one of their advisors should have called the mom to discuss the problem and/or tell her to pick up her dd. Not the secretary.

Question? When the camp found out that the girl brought secular music to camp, why did they not confiscate it if it was against the rules? And did the camp try to talk to the girl herself about the things they had a prolem with? Showing her respect by discussing with her how she needed to follow the rules t remain in camp might have helped the situation.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 10:12 pm
No BY camp would accept a girl where they knew she has issues.
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amother
Broom


 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 10:14 pm
There was an interesting letter in Mishpacha as a response. Basically that any parent or camp that thinks there are no girls in the camp with issues is deluding themselves. I think this is true.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 10:34 pm
True.

But no camp would KNOWINGLY accept a girl with an issue.

If they end up with a few, they will deal with it then.
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amother
Broom


 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 10:40 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
True.

But no camp would KNOWINGLY accept a girl with an issue.

If they end up with a few, they will deal with it then.

According to this story, they dealt with it by kicking her out. (Yes I know these stories are fiction.)
According to the letter writer who says she's a camp staff person they prefer to have a heads up beforehand. So sounds like some camps do. Anyway, the girl in this story did not sound so "hard core" if the worst of it was that she listened to secular music. That's one reason I thought this story was silly and trying too hard to make something super scandalous that really wasn't.
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Stars




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 10:50 pm
It’s always a case of miscommunication. I find these stories well written but irritating.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 19 2021, 11:30 pm
amother [ Broom ] wrote:
According to this story, they dealt with it by kicking her out. (Yes I know these stories are fiction.)
According to the letter writer who says she's a camp staff person they prefer to have a heads up beforehand. So sounds like some camps do. Anyway, the girl in this story did not sound so "hard core" if the worst of it was that she listened to secular music. That's one reason I thought this story was silly and trying too hard to make something super scandalous that really wasn't.


Iirc, she was doing more than that. Boycotting certain activities and mocking the ruchnius atmosphere.

I just want to add that the mom did not mean to be uncooperative. Its not like she got the phone call amd refused to come. She just wanted to talk to someone higher up, but the director refused to talk to her. She called her many times and the director never picked up the phone. I think it's a chutzpah that the director found the mom to be a nudge when she never once bothered to take her call.

It's also really strange that she didnt call the mom herself.

One other thing- people who are comparing camps to school and are saying that camps have less of a responsibility than schools...I find that to be only partially true. Its true that they dont have to accept girls they are worried about, but once the girl is in their camp, they need to approach her in the same way a principal would approach a student.

I have worked on several camps as a married staff member. I have found in each of the camps that the directors and head counselors were usually teachers and principles. They are all mechanchos. It's hard to believe that they would not relate to the girl as a neshama who is struggling just because it's a camp.serring as opposed to a school setting.

One final thought. Mom was in a bad spot before camp and I could understand why she wouldn't want to rock the boat by telling the camo that her daughter was troubled. But she should have made VERY sure that the girl understood clearly what she was getting herself into. She should have made sure
that the daughter did not take along questionable clothes and certainly not questionable music.

I think teenagers are just dumb sometimes. You can't expect a girl who has an ipod to not share it with her friends..teenagers are often very shortsighted. The girl could not be expected to be able to foresee the consequences of her actions. But the mom should have foreseen this and made it abundantly clear to the daughter that she needs to be super careful to toe the line.
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