Dama ben Nesina and his parents

b.chadash

Sun, Jun 20 2021, 8:08 pm

Ok, so he is an interesting fellow. He refuses to wake his father, and as a result, loses the opportunity to make a huge sale.

He ends up being rewarded with a pure para Aduma, which he is then able to sell for much more money than he would have made on the sale of the stone for the choshen, though he chooses to sell it for the same amount of money he would have made on the sale of the jewel. He is brought as an example of a person with exemplary kibbud Av v'eim.

When we were kids we always learned that the message of this story is that you are never allowed to wake up your parents.

It was only when I got a bit older that I learned that there is a different message here.

The problem with saying that his respect for his father was because he didn't wake him doesn't make sense, because any normal father would have been furious with his son for not waking him in such a situation. A normal person would have been happy to be interrupted from his beauty sleep if it meant he would be making so much money. How is it honoring his father by not waking him if he is doing something that his father would not have wanted?

The answer is that Nesina was NOT normal. To him, sleep WAS more important than making a lot of money. So Dama did not wake his father even though he stood to lose a fortune, because his crazy father would prefer not to be woken from sleep even if he would lose so much money.

Interestingly, there is another story about Dama ben Nesina in the gemara, this time with his mother. Seems like Dama was once sitting with a bunch of important people when his mother came into the room and started spitting at him and abusing him.

So she wasn't too normal neither. It was a good shidduch.

In both cases, his reverence for his parents were exemplary.

I don't know. I think the story of Dama ben Nesina is not teaching us about kibbud Av as much as how to treat parents who are mentally challenged. Or maybe parents who have dementia. (I don't mean this to be triggering to anyone.)

And its curious that his reward was a Para Aduma. I wonder what the relationship between honoring parents and a red heifer is.
And it's also curious that we learn these lessons from a Non Jew.

This is totally random but, yesterday we read about the para aduma, and today lehavdil, is Father's day. As a non Jewish man is being highlighted for his kibbud Av, I wonder what message we are supposed to take from him.

b.chadash

Sun, Jun 20 2021, 11:17 pm

leah233 wrote:

I'm sure there are other answers but I was taught that the answers are

(1)Dama ben Nesina lost a huge sum of money because he was honoring his father, it created a Heavenly Accusation against the Jewish people. By giving him a Para Aduma, Hashem showed that although a non-Jew was willing to so much money for a Mitzvah that makes sense, Jews were also willing to spend the same amount of money even for a Mitzvah that is a Divine Decree.

(2)Because he was a non-Jew and not obligated in Kibud Av the lesson is greater. Therefore he is the one who is used as the example of Kibud Av.

Right, so the thing that's confusing me is that we aren't speaking about honoring parents in the typical sense. We are talking about honoring mentally unstable and possibly abusive parents.

This is a topic that comes up here so often, unfortunately. In today's world, we are told to establish firm boundaries, and sometimes even to cut off from abusive parents.

Are we supposed to be taking a lesson from Dama whose parents were both mentally unstable, and yet he showed utmost respect for them?

When his mentally disturbed mother starts to beat him with a shoe in front of all the noblemen, the shoe falls out of her hand
So Dama goes and picks it up, and hands it back to her so she could continue beating him.

To my 21st century mind, his behavior seems really unhealthy and even like he is a glutton for punishment. Is this what we are supposed to be striving for?
If we are supposed to take the lesson from a non jew a step further, does that mean we are supposed to allow our mentally unstable parents abuse us?

The father didnt seem abusive, but he certainly was not normal.

The idea of his parents being not normal is advanced by one of the commentators, though I dont remember who. I heard it years ago from Rabbi Veiner.

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 21 2021, 10:32 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I believe that the Torah does not obligate you to tolerate abuse if you can't.

BUT if one WOULD tolerate, one would earn a reward beyond our comprehension.

A person who believes that would not feel abused and it would not be a big deal.

But this generation can't tolerate and is seeking "heterim"

Are you saying that if someone theoretically can tolerate abuse, he should? If someone doesn't feel abused when his mother beats him in public with a shoe, that is a level to strive for? If someone does feel abused, would seeking to protect oneself be considered a "heter"?

I find it interesting that Dama received the reward after the incident with his father her and not with his mother.

The kibbud eim seems to be much greater than the kibbud Av.

In the case of his mother, it required an extraordinary level of self control and humility to allow his mother to continue beating him, even handing her back the shoe so as not to upset her.

In the case of his father, he lost out on the sale, but he still had the jewel. Theoretically, he could have sold the jewel to the next customer.

And yet he was rewarded with the para aduma after the incident with his father.

Maybe there is a distinction in the two incidents, in that his father was perhaps mentally unstable but not abusive, whereas his mom was both mentally disturbed and abusive.

It's hard to know if we are meant to take instruction from the actions of Dama ben Nesina.

And again, we don't have any examples from Jews in how to treat mentally unstable parents. Or do we?

EtA: I just looked up the source. It does seem to be that this story is instructive. The sages use these stories as examples to teach us how far the mitzva of honoring parents extends.

OOT

Mon, Jun 21 2021, 11:46 am

Why do you assume that nesina was unstable or emotionally unwell? Maybe he just valued his sleep over money?
I would rather learn that the lesson over here is to honor your parents even when you don’t agree with their perspective. Some parents have preferences that seem strange to their children. For example, the parent may want the child to call each morning and evening even if that’s not considered “normal,” or “typical.”
They may prefer to stay at a neighbor’s home when they visit their child for shabbos. Etcetera.
So we learn that honor isn’t dependent on what the child thinks is honorable but rather what the parent prefers.
Noteworthy also, that we aren’t instructed to learn from the story with his mom. I would assume that is so that we know that it’s not necessarily praiseworthy to take abuse from a parent. And I’m sure that anyone who actually has an abusive parent can testify that it is often dangerous to the child’s health when they try to honor the parent in accordance with the parent’s wishes. And חייך קודמים. So if you are in a relationship with an abusive parent, it is worthwhile to consult דעת תורה to find out how to best fulfill this mitzva in your unique circumstances.
Btw, interesting that Dama’s name is the same root as Damim- money. Maybe he really valued $ even more that your average person, and it was a really hard challenge for him to forego the opportunity to earn a large amount of cash.

Ema of 5

Mon, Jun 21 2021, 11:52 am

b.chadash wrote:

Your assumption is that money is more important. There are many people for whom that is true, but there are also many for whom it is not. Does that mean that all who fall into the latter category are “not normal” because money is not their most important concern?

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 21 2021, 2:08 pm

OOT wrote:

So as I mentioned above, this is not my original thought. I heard this idea years ago in a shiur by Rabbi Veiner, but I dont remember who he quotes. I would have to go back and listen. (I can't do it now, but will try to do it later.)

And yes, it seems that there is an objective standard of what is considered normal.

Objectively, one who prefers not to be woken up from sleep at the loss of a small fortune would be considered not of sound mind. It cannot be compared to someone who simply has a different perspective or preference than his child.

Lets say you were taking a nap, and when you woke up, your child says, "oh mom, someone was just at the door and offered me 3 million dollars cash for my baseball card. But I didn't want to wake you, so he left.." you would probably be really upset at your child for not waking you. Most normal people would be furious with their kid for making such a poor judgment call. Since Dama didn't want to wake his father, it is obvious that Nesina would not have understood what the money represented. He may have been senile or the like.

OOT wrote:

Noteworthy also, that we aren’t instructed to learn from the story with his mom. I would assume that is so that we know that it’s not necessarily praiseworthy to take abuse from a parent. And I’m sure that anyone who actually has an abusive parent can testify that it is often dangerous to the child’s health when they try to honor the parent in accordance with the parent’s wishes. And חייך קודמים. So if you are in a relationship with an abusive parent, it is worthwhile to consult דעת תורה to find out how to best fulfill this mitzva in your unique circumstances.
Btw, interesting that Dama’s name is the same root as Damim- money. Maybe he really valued $ even more that your average person, and it was a really hard challenge for him to forego the opportunity to earn a large amount of cash.

As mentioned, actually I looked it up and it does say specifically by the story of the mom that we need to learn from him.

b.chadash

Mon, Jun 21 2021, 3:02 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

It is not MY assumption that money is more important. It is literally the whole point of the story in the gemara. If money was not objectively more important than sleep, this would not be a story. The gemara brings the story to show the greatness of Dama's kibbud Av.

Again, money does not have to be the most important concern. People gave up millions for Shabbos, for kashrus, for other mitzvos. You might be asked to give up a million for something else that you value (save the whales, etc. ). But no one would argue that giving up millions for an extra hour of sleep makes logical sense.

Dama gave up a lot of money to allow his father to sleep, ostensibly for kibbud Av. The point that is made is that in a case of a normal father, allowing him to sleep would literally be the opposite of Kibbud Av. But not in the case of Nesina, which shows he was not a person of sound mind.

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 7:40 am

cbsp wrote:

Ok, I'm sure Rabbi Viener mentions the Dama Ben Nesina story elsewhere as well but I found the discussion here :

Parents - Responsibilities and Obligations. Halachos and Hashkafos of Honoring Parents
http://torahstream.org/shiurim.....tions

It's in the first part. I was skimming several shiurim to find where the story is analyzed so I didn't re-listen to the whole thing but I think it's a Rav Moshe (Feinstein) that's being discussed.

Rabbi Viener also has an extended series on kibbud Av V'em where many of the questions above are addressed. These shiurim are shorter, usually around 20 minutes.

Kibbud Av V'Eim: timely questions, timeless applications, 5777
http://torahstream.org/shiurim/Kibbud_5777

Kibbud Av V'Eim: timely questions, timeless applications, 5778
http://torahstream.org/shiurim/Kibbud_5778

Thank you Cbsp!
I spent quite a bit of time yesterday searching for this, unsuccessfully.

I originally heard it on a shiur on hilchos kibbud Av V'eim. It was a set of two CDs in a case. We have long since discarded all of our CDs when we could no longer fond any functional CD players (and because my kids managed to scratch/break every CD..)

So I looked through Torah Anytime and noticed he had many shiurim on hilchos kibbud Av v'eim broken down into specifics, such as difficult and abusive parents. But I did not come across the story of Dama Ben Nesina. So I really appreciate you taking the time to find it.

I will listen to the links you posted above.

I also found an article on Aish.com that uses the same assumption of Nesina being not normal, or senile.

Here is an excerpt:

Father's Day: A Talmudic Tale by Nachman Zakon

Is honoring parents even more important than money?

Here’s a story that my father told me when I, as a young boy, disturbed his mid-afternoon Shabbat nap once too often. And yes, years later, when my sons woke me up on Shabbat afternoon, I passed this same story on to them.

The Talmud relates the following (Tractate Avoda Zara 24a):

Rabbi Eliezer was asked: How far does one have to respect parents? He said: Go and see what Dama Ben Nisina, a non-Jew in Ashkelon, did for his father.

The rabbis wanted to buy from Dama a jewel of extraordinary worth and beauty to replace missing stones on the High Priest's breast plate. The price was 600,000 gold coins. Dama's jewels were kept in a locked chest. The key to the chest was resting under the head of Dama's father, who was fast asleep. Dama would not disturb his sleeping father, and so he lost the sale.

A year later, God rewarded him. A red cow was born in Dama's herd. (This type of totally red-haired cow was extremely rare. The Jewish people in the time of the Holy Temple used a red cow for spiritual purification rites and would pay a princely sum to acquire it.) The rabbis came to Dama to buy it from him. He told them: "I know you would pay me whatever amount I ask. But I will only ask you for the amount I lost (on the jewelry deal) because I respected my father."

Talmud study is about paying attention to details. Newspapers offer us details of gore and mayhem to sell more papers, and authors provide graphic descriptive details to generate interest and sell more books. The Talmud, though, is about wisdom. When we pay attention to the details in a Talmud passage and then ask "why?" we often reveal a more complete story, a deeper lesson. This kind of mental exercise is perhaps the reason that so many Nobel Prize winners are Jewish: We have learned to keep a sharp eye out, and then to ask "why?"

When we apply these tools of Talmudic analysis, we will discover much more than what meets the eye from a simple reading of the story.

Let's apply logic to the situation. To make it easier we will convert the first half of the story into a modern scenario:

Joe needs to close a million dollar sale by sending a confirmation email at a pre-arranged deadline. His father, Dan, is sleeping in the room where Joe's computer is located. Not wanting to disturb his father's sleep, Joe loses the deal.

When Joe's father wakes up and Joe tells him what happened, what will Dan's reaction be?

Probably something like:

YOU IDIOT! WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND?

Any normal father would want his child to wake him up in this scenario, with so much money on the line. In fact, a child who does not wake up his father would be guilty of acting against his father's wishes and is not honoring him by letting him sleep.

But what if Dan suffered from late-stage Alzheimer's? That changes things, doesn't it?

This was the greatness of Dama Ben Nesina. Perhaps his father was suffering from dementia and was unable to understand the importance of the deal. Nevertheless Dama chose to lose the opportunity to make a fortune, in order to honor his senile father!

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 8:06 am

jerusalem90 wrote:

Thank you for bringing this up. I am one who struggles with kibud av ve'em and not normal parents, and I often dont know where to draw the line.

Can someone please give insight: it is clear that Dama was pleasing to H' in his dealings with his father, but was his reaction to his mother also considered ideal, or was it set up as davka "here he is not rewarded because he was taking abuse vs honoring"?

A few things.
Firstly, I'm sorry for what you are going through. I hope things get easier for you.

Second, as far as drawing the line, I recommend that you discuss this with a Rav who knows you and your situation, and get personal guidance. I don't think you should take a practical example from the story other than being aware that kibbud Av V'eim is a huge mitzva and the greater the challenge, the greater the reward.

My goal in bringing up this story was for discussion purposes only. I find it interesting to reexamine stories we grew up with. When we first heard them as children we came away with a childish perspective. As adults we can have a more nuanced understanding.

Although much has changed since the days of the gemara, human nature has not, and that is why these stories are illuminating.

To my understanding, this story is about kibbud horim and mental illness.

As to your specific question, the gemara seems to indicate that the story of how he treated his mom IS instructive.

When the rabbis heard of this remarkable self restraint and honor of his mother they proclaimed to all, "If you wish to understand how far the mitzvah of honoring one's parents extends, come learn from Dama ben Nesina."

(Maybe someone who is better at searching than me can post the relevant passage from the gemara.)

As far as the comparison of the incidents with his mother vs. his father, I was the one who pointed out above that he was rewarded with the para aduma only after the incident with his father and not his mother, and suggested maybe there is something in that. But I have not seen that anywhere so I don't know if that is a valid distinction.

If anyone has any more insights on these questions or learned how other commentators viewed these stories, I would love to hear!

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 8:52 am

b.chadash wrote:

So Rabbi Zakon seems to be of the opinion that Nesina might have had issues.

cbsp

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 9:59 am

b.chadash wrote:

You're welcome.

The first link is indeed to the (originally) 2 CD set.

torahstream.org is Rabbi Viener's site. The second 2 links I posted is his entire "short" series on the topic. Most of the shiurim have subtitles captioned so you may be able to find a shiur that fits the shaylah (abuse, mental illness, etc) but since it was an ongoing shiur I usually find I have to start with listening to one or two before for the context and the sources.

(most of these shiurim are on torahanytime.com as well if you prefer that interface)

I personally have asked Rabbi Viener multiple kibbud av v'em shaylos and the hadrachah given was nuanced yet very much still within the parameters of halachic observance.

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 22 2021, 12:27 pm

OOT wrote:

Can someone please provide a source for the idea that Nesina was “ a crazy?”
This concept does not appear to be part of the story.

Ok so I listened to the first link posted by Cbsp.

The part about Dama ben Nesina starts at 11.5 minutes in, and goes for about 10 minutes. But the whole shiur is worth listening to.

As mentioned by Cbsp, he says that he saw this idea in a teshuva in the Igros Moshe, that it's obvious that the father was not normal.

So, what is the gemara trying to teach us, if it's not to never wake the parent?

The message is that sometimes a parent has a "meshugas" and the child feels that the thing is crazy, and everyone knows it's crazy... but he has to honor it anyway. The child should not override the parent's will even if it's a meshugas.

Obviously this was so chashuv in Hashem's eyes that He rewarded Dama with the para Aduma. It must also be a very difficult thing to live with, and that is why the reward is so great.

As far as the mother was concerned, Rabbi Veiner simply says that Dama saw that his mother had a meshugas that she liked to rip his clothing and beat him in public, so he humored her. I still think this takes much more gevura than not waking the father, especially since Dama was a wealthy man (according to what I've read), so the loss of the money, while significant, would not have made a huge difference.

I wonder if anyone addresses that point: why dod he receive an obvious reward bu one story and not the other?