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Neighbor Banned Her Daughter From Playing in Our Home
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amother
Stone


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:23 pm
amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
This is well meaning but misguided. We can love other Kees even if we aren’t comfortable with their choices but it doesn’t mean we can’t have any gedarim and must all share the lowest common denominator. Would you take teenage OTD boys to live in your house and expose your teenage daughters? Of course not. But it doesn’t mean you don’t love those boys.


What if one of those OTD boys was your own son? Would you throw him out?

Yes, of course it means that you don't love those boys.

Everyone thinks they're immune until it happens to them.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:26 pm
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
What if one of those OTD boys was your own son? Would you throw him out?

Yes, of course it means that you don't love those boys.

Everyone thinks they're immune until it happens to them.


Um yes, some people need to throw out OTD sons in order to save the rest of the children. I have a 2nd cousin who had to do this when his son was a young teen.
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amother
Stone


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:29 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Um yes, some people need to throw out OTD sons in order to save the rest of the children. I have a 2nd cousin who had to do this when his son was a young teen.

I know, but it depends on a lot of factors, it's not automatic. I personally know some who did not throw out b'h (and pretend they're not chassidish, ok). Every situation has to be weighed separately, which is something you are NOT doing.
I would say it's a very last resort kind of thing, not automatic to throw your teen age child out at all.

(Honestly I'm not even sure your 2nd cousin did the right thing here).

ETA:
And what if it's a kid who's still frum but got himself a smartphone. Or dresses differently. Do you throw him out also?
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amother
Broom


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:31 pm
If you shun people in the name of having "standards," you cannot expect them to have any love for you.
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amother
Yarrow


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:33 pm
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
What if one of those OTD boys was your own son? Would you throw him out?

Yes, of course it means that you don't love those boys.

Everyone thinks they're immune until it happens to them.


And have a frum family house them together with frum teenage girls they are not related to? Here is where chazal say someone who has misplaced love and compassion is actually cruel. It sounds like love and ahavas chinam but you would actually be sacrificing those girls in the process.

That’s not the Torahs love. That’s well meaning but misguided love.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:34 pm
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
I know, but it depends on a lot of factors, it's not automatic. I personally know some who did not throw out b'h (and pretend they're not chassidish, ok). Every situation has to be weighed separately, which is something you are NOT doing.
I would say it's a very last resort kind of thing, not automatic to throw your teen age child out at all.

(Honestly I'm not even sure your 2nd cousin did the right thing here).

ETA:
And what if it's a kid who's still frum but got himself a smartphone. Or dresses differently. Do you throw him out also?


Sorry just want to clarify some things.
1. What do you mean by "and pretend they're not chassidish, ok"?
2. Yes, it should not be a last resort, but sometimes it is necessary.
3. I don't know if my 2nd cousin did the right thing, but it was done.
4. You have no idea who I am so how would you be able to comment on his choices? I'm not close enough related to even comment on his choice, just saying that it can happen.
5. What situation am I not weighing? BH I do not have this nisayon and I don't judge anyone who does.
6. I don't know. I can't even think about a smartphone or dressing different. BH not dealing with that. People need to make hard choices and discuss it with those smarter than them in that istuation.
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amother
Stone


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:34 pm
amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
And have a frum family house them together with frum teenage girls they are not related to? Here is where chazal say someone who has misplaced love and compassion is actually cruel. It sounds like love and ahavas chinam but you would actually be sacrificing those girls in the process.

That’s not the Torahs love. That’s well meaning but misguided love.

No, I'm talking about your own son. Why do you twist my words?
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:50 pm
amother [ Butterscotch ] wrote:
I'm struck by something that we keep reading over and over again in our parshios. Namely, Hashem loves those who stand up for klal yisroel. Even when the Jews do terrible things, worship a golden calf, whatever, Hashem loves those that stand up for them and support them.

We need ahavas chinam. We need to love our fellow neighbors and friends, no matter what "standards" they have. I am disturbed by all the posters that say we have to understand the other side - the other side of telling our children that people are bad. You can ask a parent not to show your daughter a smartphone, but to tell a daughter that someone isn't good enough to be with you is cementing our fractionalism.

My son went to a school with a lot of interesting, unique individuals. I'm sure that same mother would have a reason to refuse to let their child be with any of those kids, and in fact would never dream of sending their child to that school. And yet I'm so proud. Sure, it's scary because the outside world pushes its way into your home, no matter how careful you are. But at least my son is learning how to manage it, and how to care about others. How to be a Moshe Rabbainu. How to be an Aharon. How to be a Rabbi Yitzchak Dovid Grossman. That's the skill I'd want him to possess.


Yes. It would be nice if there was some Ahavas Chinam for the girl who was banned because
her father did not take the Covid Vax.

Most posters were OK with that - and are outraged about this.
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amother
Yarrow


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:50 pm
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
No, I'm talking about your own son. Why do you twist my words?


My original example wasn’t about your own child. It was about taking in OTD boys into your home when you have teenage daughters. It was responding to

amother [ Butterscotch ] wrote:
I'm struck by something that we keep reading over and over again in our parshios. Namely, Hashem loves those who stand up for klal yisroel. Even when the Jews do terrible things, worship a golden calf, whatever, Hashem loves those that stand up for them and support them.

We need ahavas chinam. We need to love our fellow neighbors and friends, no matter what "standards" they have. I am disturbed by all the posters that say we have to understand the other side - the other side of telling our children that people are bad. You can ask a parent not to show your daughter a smartphone, but to tell a daughter that someone isn't good enough to be with you is cementing our fractionalism.

My son went to a school with a lot of interesting, unique individuals. I'm sure that same mother would have a reason to refuse to let their child be with any of those kids, and in fact would never dream of sending their child to that school. And yet I'm so proud. Sure, it's scary because the outside world pushes its way into your home, no matter how careful you are. But at least my son is learning how to manage it, and how to care about others. How to be a Moshe Rabbainu. How to be an Aharon. How to be a Rabbi Yitzchak Dovid Grossman. That's the skill I'd want him to possess.


If ahavas chinam means one big melting pot and letting your child associate with everybody without exception and regardless of whether their hashkafos align with yours then it follows that one must take in OTD boys or not love them. This is misguided.
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amother
Stone


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 7:53 pm
amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
If ahavas chinam means one big melting pot and letting your child associate with everybody without exception and regardless of weather their hashkafos align with yours then it follows that one must take in OTD boys or not love them. This is misguided.

Do you really see someone who is frum but their hashkafos are not exactly the same as yours as exactly the same as someone who's son is engaged in risky behavior such as drug usage, blatant chillul Shabbos and the like?

Oy.
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amother
Yarrow


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 8:01 pm
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
Do you really see someone who is frum but their hashkafos are not exactly the same as yours as exactly the same as someone who's son is engaged in risky behavior such as drug usage, blatant chillul Shabbos and the like?

Oy.


I actually don’t but I recognize that different segments of klal yisrael each have their own standards and it’s misguided to impose my standards on them in the name of ahavas yisrael. Why is it ok to draw the line at chilul shabbos and want to protect your children from its influence but not ok for others to draw different lines that are really important to them?
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 8:10 pm
amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
I actually don’t but I recognize that different segments of klal yisrael each have their own standards and it’s misguided to impose my standards on them in the name of ahavas yisrael. Why is it ok to draw the line at chilul shabbos and want to protect your children from its influence but not ok for others to draw different lines that are really important to them?


Because there is a difference between halacha and hashkafa. You don't see the difference between being oiver halacha and having different shitos?
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amother
Arcticblue


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 8:10 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Um yes, some people need to throw out OTD sons in order to save the rest of the children. I have a 2nd cousin who had to do this when his son was a young teen.


I know of multiple cases of boys 14 or younger kicked out for being OTD in brooklyn. It’s really heartbreaking. They are literally homeless children and get exposed to and often into much worse on the streets. It’s tragic and irresponsible in most of these cases. These are children.
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amother
Butterscotch


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 8:55 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Um yes, some people need to throw out OTD sons in order to save the rest of the children. I have a 2nd cousin who had to do this when his son was a young teen.


Unless this kid is a drug user that's actively pushing unsafe behaviors on the rest of the kids, throwing a kid out has the opposite effect on "saving" the rest of the children. You'll see.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 8:56 pm
amother [ Butterscotch ] wrote:
Unless this kid is a drug user that's actively pushing unsafe behaviors on the rest of the kids, throwing a kid out has the opposite effect on "saving" the rest of the children. You'll see.


Um why are you ganging up on me? I didn't have any involvement and I barely know anything about this except that all of the other children are completely frum and erlich BH. I feel bad for the son but it's not my place to judge otherpeople nor is it yours.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 9:01 pm
amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
And have a frum family house them together with frum teenage girls they are not related to? Here is where chazal say someone who has misplaced love and compassion is actually cruel. It sounds like love and ahavas chinam but you would actually be sacrificing those girls in the process.

That’s not the Torahs love. That’s well meaning but misguided love.



Oh, cut it out. You're not chazal. You have no business twisting their words to suit a mehalech that has some serious detractors from our Gedolei Hador. You're quoting a chazal where they cite Shaul's reason for not killing the Amalek king on Hashem's direct orders and equating it to kids whose parents have smartphones.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 9:16 pm
amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
This is well meaning but misguided. We can love others even if we aren’t comfortable with their choices but it doesn’t mean we can’t have any gedarim and must all share the lowest common denominator. Would you take teenage OTD boys to live in your house and expose your teenage daughters? Of course not. But it doesn’t mean you don’t love those boys. Love doesn’t mean a melting pot. The Gemara talks about the greatest chachamim who wouldn’t accept an invitation to an event unless they knew who they were seated next to.

The Rambam says that one will almost invariably end up following in the ways of those he associated with and therefore a person should carefully choose his associations.



Interesting you mention the Rambam.

In France, people burned the Rambam's sefarim because they felt it was an undue influence on other people. Sounds familiar? They felt Morah Nevuchim would throw everyone off the derech, in addition to other issues they had with his teachings.

They felt so strongly against him that they first banned his books, then alerted authorities and his works were burned in 1232. Eight years later, in Paris, they thought this would be a fine ending for the rest of our works, and put the gemara on trial. The result? Burn them all, the Church said. 24 wagonloads of handwritten talmudic volumes were burned in 1242. On the 9th of Tammuz, actually, which is why many fast on that day (this past Friday). France rapidly declined as a Torah center after that, and has never recovered.

We're always our own worst enemy, all in the name of being frummer than the next.

amother [ Yarrow ] wrote:
As far as having a problem with the neighbors way of life and chinuch for her kids, I think everyone here will acknowledge that there are numerous rabbanim who would advise the neighbor not to expose her kid to a home with a smartphone. They may not be your Rav but they are talmidei chachamim and have earned their right to their psak.


I'd love to hear a Rabbi say, out loud, to everyone, that you must tell your children not to go to anyone's house who has a smartphone. Which Rav is this? Why are these Rabbaim always so mysterious and anonymous? If you're going to have this view, stand up and say it.
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CPenzias




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 9:43 pm
Lovable wrote:
how can you be so quick to make such harsh assumptions about someone you never met? There are two sides to every story. Never forget that
You can validate OP but no need to label someone you never met based on an an anonymous post on Ima mother.

She didn't give us a chance to meet her did she? She wouldn't give me the time of day because I'm using my smartphone to type this message right now. She makes assumptions about smart phone users, I can make assumptions about her.
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amother
Yarrow


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 9:50 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
I'd love to hear a Rabbi say, out loud, to everyone, that you must tell your children not to go to anyone's house who has a smartphone. Which Rav is this? Why are these Rabbaim always so mysterious and anonymous? If you're going to have this view, stand up and say it.


They aren’t talking to you. They are talking to those is their specific communities who respect their opinion.
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amother
Yarrow


 

Post Mon, Jun 21 2021, 9:58 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Oh, cut it out. You're not chazal. You have no business twisting their words to suit a mehalech that has some serious detractors from our Gedolei Hador. You're quoting a chazal where they cite Shaul's reason for not killing the Amalek king on Hashem's direct orders and equating it to kids whose parents have smartphones.


I was referring to taking OTD boys into a house with teenage girls in the guise of ahavas chinam to demonstrate that ahavas chinam is not limitless.

Reading comprehension is a valuable skill.
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