Gender and pronouns- please help me understand this

ruby slippers

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:26 pm

I just found out that a biologically born female student of mine is now asking others to use the pronoun he and him when speaking to them. I am not sure how the jewish/orthodox day school this student attends is going to deal with this. I want to be respectful, but have a hard time with this (yes my heart goes out to the student- but just being honest) and will simply call the student by their first name. But could someone explain to me... this student has a boyfriend(biological male). If the student is dating a boy and is attracted to males, but the student wants to use male pronouns where does all of that fit. I know I will get some responses of just mind your own business, but I am trying to understand this and have no one to have a candid conversation with.- Thanks.

singleagain

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:38 pm

Ok. I don't know. But if you don't have a filter. Ask these questions on BuzzFeed or Reddit. There are groups for this

If you have a filter, I'll try to help with specific things and post back here.

It could be that the student identifies as mail but also is attracted to mail and therefore about would make them a gay trans man.

This is common enough that they was an episode of good doctor where a trans man was in the hospital and he had a boyfriend.

elsily

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:39 pm

eema1 wrote:

Gender identity is different from sxuality. Your student who is asking to use he/him pronouns may identify as male or non-binary, or for whatever reason, prefers those pronouns. They may be attracted to girls or boys, both, or none. Their romantic relationships are different from what gender they identify with.

SixOfWands

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 10:42 pm

eema1 wrote:

This student identifies as a (transgender) male who is gay or bi, rather than as a straight female.

I don't envy the school administration in dealing with this both halachically and compassionately.

jerusalem90

Thu, Jul 29 2021, 11:58 pm

Not saying this is definitely it, but sometimes the daughters of abusive mothers will wish they were boys because of a unconscious desire to resemble the mother as little as possible. When my generation were children, it ended in wishing, these days the children might be told that they actually are boys in girls' bodies and need surgery to "correct" it.

tigerwife

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 12:12 am

SixOfWands wrote:

This student identifies as a (transgender) male who is gay or bi, rather than as a straight female.

I don't envy the school administration in dealing with this both halachically and compassionately.

Is someone considered transgender just because they switch their pronouns? Every other new questionnaire has an option for sx at birth, preferred gender, preferred pronouns, etc… it doesn’t surprise me that kids actually accept that they have the option to do as they wish. I don’t think it’s necessarily a mental health issue, just very wide freedom of choice. Of course, I know nothing about this particular student but on sm it seems like pronouns have become quite fluid. I actually wonder how this works out in languages where many words are gender dependent as well.

BokerTov

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 12:35 am

liveandlove.ima wrote:

don't want to derail but this made me lol LOL

no worries, I know its just a typo, cute tho

I’m not sure it was a typo. In this day and age people can identify as mail, oxen, houses, garbage cans... anything goes.

In fact, some men even call their DW ox, house etc.

Teomima

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 1:55 am

Kol hakavod to you for wanting to learn and understand.
I'm going to approach this from a humanistic angle, not a Jewish one.
It happens that people don't always identify with the bodies they were born. Sometimes the feel more like the other, sometimes they feel like both, sometime's they feel like neither. It's not a new concept, just relatively new that we have actual terminology for it. Once someone latches on to a term, though, they might feel like they finally have the words to describe how they identify internally. I think it's a great sign of respect to use those terms. So if someone identifies as male and wants to be referred to in the way they already feel inside, I use their preferred pronouns. Whether or not I use them, that doesn't change the way they feel. Even if I continued to call them 'she', they'd still feel like a 'he', and my use of the incorrect pronouns wouldn't change that and would only serve to hurt and alienate them. For example, regardless of what body I was born into, I identify as female and would feel very uncomfortable if someone called me Sir or used he/him pronouns.

Regarding your student having a boyfriend, the boyfriend could either be a cover or they could identify as a gay/bi male.

If you are uncomfortable with their preferred pronouns, calling your student but their name is a good solution. Though they might choose to change this as well.

In any case, I give you a lot of credit for learning about it and trying to be respectful, despite this being uncomfortable for you.

DrMom

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 2:06 am

There is a growing phenomenon among teenage girls whereby they claim to "identify as boys."

Abigail Shrier, the author of the well-researched book (a book banned by Amazon for a while because it conflucts with the LGBTQ agenda) Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters, describes the phenomenon as a reaction by teen girls to isolation, online social dynamics, restrictive gender and s-xuality labels, unwelcome physical changes and s-xual attention that sometimes accompany adolescence. In previous decades, they might have fallen prey ton anorexia, bulimia, or other disorders; now, they identify as boys.

Of course, there are a teeny tiny minority of people who do have genuine gender dysphoria, but for many it is a social fad.

If I were in your place, I'd just avoid stepping on landmines by not using any pronouns for this girl at all.

https://www.amazon.com/Irrever.....6XK55

sequoia

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 5:58 am

Yeah a lot of girls are pressured to transition by their peer group or even by their parents [!!!] because they prefer loose comfortable clothing or have an interest in STEM. Just total insanity and the narrowest of performative gender jails. If you’re not wearing pink and playing with Barbies 24/7, you must be a boy.

BadTichelDay

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 6:25 am

sequoia wrote:

Oy. As a kid, I loved playing with toy cars and planes. As a (non-frum) teen, I loved jeans, heavy boots and leather jackets.

B"H I was born decades before the current gender political correctness and not in the US.

I'm today a DL frum woman, married and with kids. Happy that way. Shuddering at the thought of what would have become of me if I'd been born in a different time and place and people had drilled into my head that I must be transgender or something.

ruby slippers

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 7:39 am

Thank you so much everyone for helping me with this. Student has a loving home, but very unorganized a lot of ADD (although no idea what happens behind closed doors).
I guess what I don't understand is, if you have female body parts and you are attracted to males body parts, then it all matches up- why want to be a man. The male clothing suggestion doesn't work here- as she wears pants anyway.

singleagain

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 7:44 am

liveandlove.ima wrote:

don't want to derail but this made me lol LOL

no worries, I know its just a typo, cute tho

Whoops. It was quite late when I was posting. And very tired.

And for those who are saying it might just be part of the "fad" my question is do you want to risk hurting the student by implying he is just going through a phase, when he might genuinely have dysphoria?

elsily

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 7:47 am

eema1 wrote:

They are lucky to have you in their lives. Being respectful of their wishes and trying to understand them. Transgender teens have a much higher rate of suicide so they need all the support they can get.

Chickensoupprof

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 7:49 am

eema1 wrote:

I have an info shart of this who tells it all and what we used in uni

singleagain

Fri, Jul 30 2021, 7:50 am

eema1 wrote:

As elsily said upthread gender identity and s*xual identity are two very differently things.

It has nothing to do with wearing clothes. (By the way, men's pants are different than female ones)

I don't think it matters if you understand it. But it's important to respect it