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Tzaar baalei chaim
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amother
Azalea


 

Post Mon, Aug 02 2021, 11:14 pm
Chasid wrote:
So what's the problem? The small enclosure?

That and the way they are stacked. Being on the bottom and being pooped on by the other chickens isn't pleasant.
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Chasid




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 8:24 am
amother [ Azalea ] wrote:
That and the way they are stacked. Being on the bottom and being pooped on by the other chickens isn't pleasant.


as others said, you can buy the free range chicken or whatever they called if you feel bad about it
any chicken in the supermarket is being treated the same way or worse.... so...
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amother
Stoneblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 11:41 am
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
We were given the laws of shechita and we were instructed to eat meat at occasions such as korban Pesach.

If Hashem is ok with it, you should be too. Humans never have more compassion than Hashem.


We were also given laws on how to treat slaves. And yet most of us no longer want to have slaves anymore.
And how to 'rape' hostage women. Would that be ok with you, if your dh or son participated? After all, we shouldn't have more compassion than Hashem.

(BTW I am a vegetarian myself).
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amother
Azalea


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:03 pm
Chasid wrote:
as others said, you can buy the free range chicken or whatever they called if you feel bad about it
any chicken in the supermarket is being treated the same way or worse.... so...

1. Two wrongs don't make one right. The supermarket chickens may be mistreated too, but that does not in any way justify the mistreatment of kaparos chickens.
2. The tzaar baalei chaim involved in kaparos is more tragically ironic. Trying to cleanse ourselves of sin by committing another is just twisted.
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amother
Opal


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:08 pm
amother [ Azalea ] wrote:
1. Two wrongs don't make one right. The supermarket chickens may be mistreated too, but that does not in any way justify the mistreatment of kaparos chickens.
2. The tzaar baalei chaim involved in kaparos is more tragically ironic. Trying to cleanse ourselves of sin by committing another is just twisted.

It's ok to do kaparos with a chicken as long as it is treated properly before, during, and after.
The Torah is so strict about the proper treatment of animals. If kaparos were deemed tzar balei chaim, it wouldn't be allowed & would actually be against halacha. However it is allowing and if you choose to do kaparos that way it behooves you take care to to treat the bird properly so you aren't going against hilchos tzar balei chaim. Especially if it's Yom Kippur the next day!
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amother
Cadetblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:12 pm
If this is the typical treatment of animals, is it considered Tzaar Baalei Chaim? And if it is, where is the justification to do another mitzvah (eating meat on Shabbos) by doing an aveira?

I do think we should push for upgrades in animal treatment. But I don't think that picking on Kaparos first is fair or reasonable, especially since it's once a year and a minhag, while shechitah of chickens (and milking of cows) is daily, and most are eaten for taste or convenience, not even a minhag.
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:13 pm
amother [ Opal ] wrote:
It's ok to do kaparos with a chicken as long as it is treated properly before, during, and after.
The Torah is so strict about the proper treatment of animals. If kaparos were deemed tzar balei chaim, it wouldn't be allowed & would actually be against halacha. However it is allowing and if you choose to do kaparos that way it behooves you take care to to treat the bird properly so you aren't going against hilchos tzar balei chaim. Especially if it's Yom Kippur the next day!


Please tell me how swinging a chicken around could EVER be a way you would properly treat a living creature.
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amother
Cadetblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:15 pm
vintagebknyc wrote:
Please tell me how swinging a chicken around could EVER be a way you would properly treat a living creature.

I don't know where you live that people SWING a chicken. I pick up the chicken gently, so it is calm, lift it above my head, and move it around in a circle. There is nothing painful or traumatic about it.
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:24 pm
amother [ Cadetblue ] wrote:
I don't know where you live that people SWING a chicken. I pick up the chicken gently, so it is calm, lift it above my head, and move it around in a circle. There is nothing painful or traumatic about it.


Looks like swinging to me here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm3y7PO0i1I

And here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofvvb438Ug

You think these are actors, faking it?
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amother
Opal


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:26 pm
amother [ Cadetblue ] wrote:
I don't know where you live that people SWING a chicken. I pick up the chicken gently, so it is calm, lift it above my head, and move it around in a circle. There is nothing painful or traumatic about it.

Exactly. I don't personally use a chicken but back in school, my BY principal came around one year to do it in the classrooms (more of a demo, teaching tool while the girls watched) and he was very gentle and treated it delicately. Also, the chicken was in a nice sized cage. The chicken barely made a peep or flapped its wings at all. Didn't seem to bother it any more than when a petting zoo came to campus and the zookeeper took various animals out of their cages and let girls line up to touch them. Probably less because no screeching or tons of people handling.
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amother
Cadetblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:28 pm
Maybe you were not informed as to how a chicken is properly lifted. I was told to pick it up under the wings as that is the most comfortable way for it to be held. It's not painful for the chicken, and being circled around your head is not swinging.

(Admittedly I did not watch your full videos, so maybe someone did mistreat a chicken in the process, and that's nothing to defend.)

When I hear "swing" I think of someone grabbing the poor chicken by its legs and treating it like a lasso.
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amother
Cinnamon


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:32 pm
So, it's a mitzva to terrify small children in a slaughterhouse?

I want to know what siman it is when a chicken poops on your head. Is it good luck, or a bad omen for the coming year?
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amother
Azalea


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:33 pm
The chickens at most of the kaparos places are usually dirty and missing feathers.
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amother
Opal


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:35 pm
amother [ Cinnamon ] wrote:
So, it's a mitzva to terrify small children in a slaughterhouse?


Kaparos are not done in a slaughterhouse.

The few times I participated or watched as a child, it wasn't scary at all. I was probably way more creeped by snakehandlers at the aforementioned petting zoo.

No pooping happened during the kaparos that I was part of, either. Can't speak for everyone's experience in that area, though.
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amother
Opal


 

Post Tue, Aug 03 2021, 12:41 pm
BTW in the shtetl, when everyone used chickens, people were accustomed to handling chickens and taking to the local shochet to get killed before shabbos or whenever. It was a normal everyday part of life. We are mostly citified now, so yes it seems strange.
And I posted before, the chickens need to be cared for properly before and after. But the actual act, when done properly, does not cause pain or distress to the bird. Maybe more schools should be doing what my principal did, so kids grow up learning the proper way to do kaparos, and how to treat the bird. He clearly explained how he'd be doing it and why it was important to do it in such a way so the bird wouldn't get upset.
(Shout out to Rabbi Freedman A"H of Bais Yaakov of Baltimore)
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amother
Blushpink


 

Post Thu, Aug 05 2021, 10:36 am
vintagebknyc wrote:
Looks like swinging to me here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm3y7PO0i1I

And here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofvvb438Ug

You think these are actors, faking it?

Some of those people are not holding the chicken properly.
Maybe we need more awareness on holding the chickens in the best way.
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amother
Tiffanyblue


 

Post Sun, Aug 08 2021, 7:09 pm
amother [ Azalea ] wrote:
That and the way they are stacked. Being on the bottom and being pooped on by the other chickens isn't pleasant.


Thats how they are transported from farm to slaughter house too. Chickens don't seem to mind being pooped on. How can we know what is 'pleasant' to a chicken?

And most birds go from kapporos to the slaughterhouse where they have to be healthy in order to be shechted. If the bird is injured or sick it will not be kosher. So handlers try to keep them in the best possible condition-at least where I live they do.
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amother
Tiffanyblue


 

Post Sun, Aug 08 2021, 7:10 pm
Chasid wrote:
as others said, you can buy the free range chicken or whatever they called if you feel bad about it
any chicken in the supermarket is being treated the same way or worse.... so...


Free range chicken is transported to the slaughterhouse the same way regular birds are. In crates stacked one on top of the next.
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