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-> Parenting our children
imamommy5
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 Fri, Sep 24 2021, 2:26 pm
| mommylev wrote: | Okay, can everyone chill? Let me know if my assumption is correct.
In certain areas in Yerushalayim, such as Meah Shearim and Geulah, there is a tremendous amount of people walking in and through a very narrow street on Sukkos. What can be done to prevent everyone from bumping into each other during this time of year? the people there who are very sensitive to tznius behavior designate one side of the street for men, and the other for ladies. It's how they live their life, separating the genders. (Yes, I know all us Americans are screaming in uproar. But that's how it is.) So if a girl comes, and is on the wrong side of the street with signs clearly marked for men only, and may be dressed in a seminary girl uniform (and may be talking on a cell phone loudly as well) I can see how a man will get upset. No, he has no right to touch a girl. No, he should not have done what he did. Is it possible that that's what happened? |
actually skver has it all year round one side is for men the other is for ladies. and yes you should try to stick to it but no one should ever pick someone else up. and for those of you who are doubting that he picked her up he shouldnt have even said something to her.
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imamommy5
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 2:29 pm
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I find it very anoying actually walking down the block. (in borough park) chasidish men are really obnoxous dont just walk your allowed to move if a women wants to pass.
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amother
Oatmeal
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 3:15 pm
| imamommy5 wrote: | | I find it very anoying actually walking down the block. (in borough park) chasidish men are really obnoxous dont just walk your allowed to move if a women wants to pass. |
Well someone has to move, so if you refuse to move for them they won't have a choice. (Been there done that. I don't feel I have to maneuver my stroller for them.)
(I wouldn't do this in Israel, too scared. But in BP yes)
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amother
Poppy
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 3:47 pm
| imamommy5 wrote: | | I find it very anoying actually walking down the block. (in borough park) chasidish men are really obnoxous dont just walk your allowed to move if a women wants to pass. |
Most of the time, men do move and walk at the side of the sidewalk. We both have to move to let others pass instead of expecting others to move for us.
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amother
Coral
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 3:49 pm
Only read the Op,
1- you be there to help dd emotionally, mentally
2- you placed her in the care of the school for the year, it must be reported to the people caring for the girls for the year, so they can have an eye on the situation.
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amother
OP
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 4:09 pm
| mommylev wrote: | Okay, can everyone chill? Let me know if my assumption is correct.
In certain areas in Yerushalayim, such as Meah Shearim and Geulah, there is a tremendous amount of people walking in and through a very narrow street on Sukkos. What can be done to prevent everyone from bumping into each other during this time of year? the people there who are very sensitive to tznius behavior designate one side of the street for men, and the other for ladies. It's how they live their life, separating the genders. (Yes, I know all us Americans are screaming in uproar. But that's how it is.) So if a girl comes, and is on the wrong side of the street with signs clearly marked for men only, and may be dressed in a seminary girl uniform (and may be talking on a cell phone loudly as well) I can see how a man will get upset. No, he has no right to touch a girl. No, he should not have done what he did. Is it possible that that's what happened? |
So I asked her when I spoke to her this morning. She said it was on Rechov Strauss and the sidewalk was very crowded. She said there were a bunch of men buying something from some kiosk, but that there were other women walking on the sidewalk with her- all avoiding any contact with the men. My daughter didn’t mention that she was on the phone at the time, but that she was alone and was minding her own business. She said this man walked up to her, put his hand around her waist, and deposited her in the street while yelling at her (but totally ignoring all the other women). My daughter is tall and slender (having also been looked up and down and whistled at by a bunch of American bochurim earlier in the day), and frankly it sounds like he wanted to touch her- and found an excuse. She promises to tell the principal- but she wishes to do it herself. She said she wouldn’t walk alone anymore. She said she was dressed for chol hamoed, but was totally appropriate (and I believe her) She also said she understood that when she is touched without permission, yelling Stop Touching Me is the fastest way to alleviate the problem. She further recognizes that if the sidewalk is full of only men, she should probably not walk there if wants to avoid problems.
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amother
OP
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 4:11 pm
| imamommy5 wrote: | | actually skver has it all year round one side is for men the other is for ladies. and yes you should try to stick to it but no one should ever pick someone else up. and for those of you who are doubting that he picked her up he shouldnt have even said something to her. |
Anyone who picks up a strange girl for any reason is not all that frum.
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amother
OP
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Fri, Sep 24 2021, 4:15 pm
| mommylev wrote: | | And if that is the case, then that's the consequences. You don't need to interfere. Is she harmed? Is she traumatized? Or was she telling it to you in a matter-of-fact way? |
Sorry. (Actually I’m not) This is fairly insensitive. My daughter is quiet, refined, tznius and she doesn’t deserve anything. She most likely wasn’t talking on the phone at all. I have never seen her walk in the street and talk loudly. And yes- it harms a girl and robs them of her innocence to be touched by a frum looking man.
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Elfrida
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 1:29 pm
| mommylev wrote: | Okay, can everyone chill? Let me know if my assumption is correct.
In certain areas in Yerushalayim, such as Meah Shearim and Geulah, there is a tremendous amount of people walking in and through a very narrow street on Sukkos. What can be done to prevent everyone from bumping into each other during this time of year? the people there who are very sensitive to tznius behavior designate one side of the street for men, and the other for ladies. It's how they live their life, separating the genders. (Yes, I know all us Americans are screaming in uproar. But that's how it is.) So if a girl comes, and is on the wrong side of the street with signs clearly marked for men only, and may be dressed in a seminary girl uniform (and may be talking on a cell phone loudly as well) I can see how a man will get upset. No, he has no right to touch a girl. No, he should not have done what he did. Is it possible that that's what happened? |
No, not really. Geula is a very crowded shopping area, and both men and women need to go to shops on both sides of the street. I worked in Geula for years, and shopped there for longer. When it is very crowded before Yom Tov people will often walk in the street because there is no room on the pavement, but I never saw any segregation into men's side and women's side.
The only time they try to introduce segregation is in the evening when going to the Smachot Beit HaShoeva. Then it is clearly delineated, and often has only limited success.
If there was a large group of men or women standing in one place, that might be a time I would step into the street to get past them. (The traffic is normally slower than walking pace so there is no real risk.) It would be a decision based on practicality, not tzniut.
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morahaviva
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 1:39 pm
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It kinda doesnt make sense. If someone is crazy frum that he thinks men and women cannot use the same sidewalk, no way in heck he would touch her to move her.
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amother
Chartreuse
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 7:29 pm
| Sesame wrote: | | There’s such a thing as male designated paths to walk and female designated routes in some areas during sukkos cos of the heavy traffic. Sometimes it’s more of an unofficial rule. |
This it 1000% illegal in Israel. It is absolutely illegal to direct women (or men) to walk on different paths in a neighborhood, be in Meah Shearim or Tel Aviv.
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amother
Chartreuse
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 7:33 pm
| amother [ Poppy ] wrote: | | There are creeps everywhere, but Israel is loaded. There are way more creeps in Israel than in Brooklyn. Every time I'm in Israel I see grown (secular) men m@sturbating in public. I see so many chareidi looking men behaving like...... and exposing their privates to pee on the street. Get on to a bus in Yerushalayim and you'll be shocked by what you see. I once saw a man rubbing a women's behind on a packed bus with one hand in his pants. I never really see it in Brooklyn or elsewhere. |
Never seen this in my life, and I've lived in Israel thirty yrs. Nor have my dds ever reported anything like that. And I've lived mainly in secular areas.
(As for peeing - yes sometimes men will pull their car over on the side of the highway, and pee behind the door, where it's obvious what they are doing. But you never see anything graphic).
Never seen a man touching himself in public!
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amother
Chartreuse
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 7:37 pm
| mommylev wrote: | | And if that is the case, then that's the consequences. You don't need to interfere. Is she harmed? Is she traumatized? Or was she telling it to you in a matter-of-fact way? |
Excuse me, that's the consequences? She was walking along innocently, and a guy manhandled her, and you think she deserved it? Geez.
And what she was wearing is absolutely irrelevant, for all those harping on it. I feel like I've entered the 1950s or something.
This guy harassed her for doing something perfectly normal and legal. He broke the law twice - first for insisting she walk elsewhere just because she is a woman, and second for touching her against her will.
I do agree with you though on one thing - it's not the end of the world. I wouldn't blow it out of proportion. Our girls don't need to be so fragile that something like this breaks them.
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amother
Kiwi
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 8:59 pm
Really bizarre how anyone would or could go out of their way to somehow find a way to make sense out of what this guy did to Ops daughter.
Would you do the same if it happens to you? To your own daughter?
Sorry op- you don’t have to defend prove etc
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amother
Ivory
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 9:04 pm
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I’ve had something similar happen to me and I was a grown woman! Sorry this happened to your dd, OP. I hope she’s okay now.
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allthingsblue
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 9:05 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | So I asked her when I spoke to her this morning. She said it was on Rechov Strauss and the sidewalk was very crowded. She said there were a bunch of men buying something from some kiosk, but that there were other women walking on the sidewalk with her- all avoiding any contact with the men. My daughter didn’t mention that she was on the phone at the time, but that she was alone and was minding her own business. She said this man walked up to her, put his hand around her waist, and deposited her in the street while yelling at her (but totally ignoring all the other women). My daughter is tall and slender (having also been looked up and down and whistled at by a bunch of American bochurim earlier in the day), and frankly it sounds like he wanted to touch her- and found an excuse. She promises to tell the principal- but she wishes to do it herself. She said she wouldn’t walk alone anymore. She said she was dressed for chol hamoed, but was totally appropriate (and I believe her) She also said she understood that when she is touched without permission, yelling Stop Touching Me is the fastest way to alleviate the problem. She further recognizes that if the sidewalk is full of only men, she should probably not walk there if wants to avoid problems. |
That is very sad. I’m so sorry that happened to her! It sounds very violating!
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mommy3b2c
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 11:03 pm
| mommylev wrote: | Okay, can everyone chill? Let me know if my assumption is correct.
In certain areas in Yerushalayim, such as Meah Shearim and Geulah, there is a tremendous amount of people walking in and through a very narrow street on Sukkos. What can be done to prevent everyone from bumping into each other during this time of year? the people there who are very sensitive to tznius behavior designate one side of the street for men, and the other for ladies. It's how they live their life, separating the genders. (Yes, I know all us Americans are screaming in uproar. But that's how it is.) So if a girl comes, and is on the wrong side of the street with signs clearly marked for men only, and may be dressed in a seminary girl uniform (and may be talking on a cell phone loudly as well) I can see how a man will get upset. No, he has no right to touch a girl. No, he should not have done what he did. Is it possible that that's what happened? |
I want you to read back what you wrote and tell me if it sounds normal. Thanks.
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First Lady
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Sat, Sep 25 2021, 11:10 pm
Oh my gosh OP, what a crazy story. I'd be livid. I'm just shocked that nobody interfered. Although maybe it happened so fast and before anybody could do anything it was over.
Feel so bad for your daughter. Maybe have someone speak to her to make sure she's OK and that she knows that this was all about a crazy individual and nothing to do with her.
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