Throwing a child in a pool

amother

RosePink

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 2:51 pm

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

I think this cheapens the word abuse.

If the father is a good father he made a big mistake. Not all parenting mistakes are abusive.

I don’t see how it’s different than punishing a child in a dark locked closet. (And a punishment is after the child did something wrong. Here the child was suddenly thrown in.) To me it’s pure trauma. A parent has a responsibility to protect a child not to traumatize him.

amother

Zinnia

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 2:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I agree.
Actually, now that we’re on the topic, does anyone know if it’s halacha for parents to provide swimming lessons to their children?
I always thought that it’s halacha. DH’s family never got swimming lessons and only 2 of them know how to swim.

I learned that in the Gemara it says a father has an obligation to teach his son to swim

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 2:57 pm

amother [ IndianRed ] wrote:

How can it be that a 6 year old that lives in a house that has a pool doesn't know how to swim? That's irresponsible.

It’s 4ft deep. The above ground type.
Maybe he can swim but not in the deep. I’m not sure…
But the mom definitely yelled that he can’t swim. Maybe she meant in the deep…idk

amother

IndianRed

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 3:03 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It’s 4ft deep. The above ground type.
Maybe he can swim but not in the deep. I’m not sure…
But the mom definitely yelled that he can’t swim. Maybe she meant in the deep…idk

People can drown in 6 inches of water. 4 feet is deep for a child. If a child can swim, the depth of the water doesn't matter.

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 3:03 pm

I know this family well, and I can confidently say that he’s a bit too tough with his sons.
Of course being tough is abusive to some… so I won’t say he’s not abusive to prevent hurt feelings.

amother

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 3:10 pm

amother [ IndianRed ] wrote:

People can drown in 6 inches of water. 4 feet is deep for a child. If a child can swim, the depth of the water doesn't matter.

I’m not justifying anything. I’m stating facts.
Also, it’s possible that he does swim, just not in the deep.

SixOfWands

Mon, Oct 11 2021, 3:16 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I’m not justifying anything. I’m stating facts.
Also, it’s possible that he does swim, just not in the deep.

Water is water. If you can swim in 2 feet, you can swim in 10.

But even a decent swimmer is going to need a few seconds to recover from the shock of being thrown in. Unless you know, 100%, that the child is a strong swimmer and would enjoy this, don't do it.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 7:56 am

amother [ RosePink ] wrote:

That was a life threatening mistake. Stupid is an understatement. And yes it’s abusive too. It’s beyond me how someone feels this was not abusive.

There's a harmful action, and an abusive person.

If the father deliberately did this, knowing how much it would upset his son, it would be abusive.

But it sounds like he did it impulsively, and was horrified and ashamed when he realized just how badly he'd messed up. It's not even clear if he realized the kid couldn't swim.

It was a dumb move, and if he does that kind of thing in general I'd agree it's a big red flag (surprising someone with a physically unpleasant experience is only a funny joke if you're a jerk, especially in front of their friends). But I think it's possible to say he might not be abusive, even while recognizing that it was a terrible experience for the kid.

southernbubby

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 8:00 am

But as I said before, we have to model good behavior for our children. Do we want our kids to push other kids, who don't want to be pushed, into swimming pools?
We have to make it clear that they can only do it if everyone involved wants to play the game and can do it safely.
Some pools don't allow pushing at all and the lifeguard may object.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 8:02 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

I'm the one who said that my grandfather did this. All of us learned to swim. We had many great summers in the pool, all of us (cousins) together. They all learned this way.

Again, I'm not saying I would do it myself. But I think that my grandfather did it the right way. None of us were scarred from it. And we're talking over a dozen kids. He was a loving, wonderful grandfather.

Sure, but you're talking about a situation where you had plenty of time to get familiar with the water first, you knew it was coming, you were looking forward to it, and your grandfather waited until you were ready.

Throwing a kid into the water when they aren't expecting it, let alone actively excited, is a very different story.

You can find some people who learned to swim that way (sort of... most had some experience in water before, because swimming is not a natural instinct and the most likely outcome of someone who can't swim falling into deep water is just that they drown...). But you can also find a lot of people who were traumatized, sometimes so much so that they never learned to swim.

amother

Lily

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 8:07 am

I grew up in FL. We had a pool and knew how to swim from very young. And I was still traumatized when a relative picked me up and threw me in the pool at 6 yrs old.

If the kid didn't know how to swim, yes, it was incredibly dangerous to do that.

But even if he did, it was still abusive. It's stripping away a child's sense of autonomy and security.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 8:28 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This dad in particular does try to toughen up his sons…

Wait, what century are we in?

A 6 year old does not need to be toughened up! He's a first grader, not a piece of cow hide. I dread to think what else this dad does to make his boys into men. Does he tell them it's not OK to cry? Does he call them sissies or pansycakes?

I don't even know what the opposite of "tough" is to this dad. Does he have a deep dark fear that if he doesn't treat his boys this way, that they'll somehow come out effeminate, or even gay? I hear drowning is a good cure for homozexuality.

When someone talks about "toxic masculinity", this is what they are talking about. That "Don't be a wuss." attitude that can damage a little boy for life. And you wonder why some men are so emotionally unavailable and dead inside. Crying

My sister and I have both been thrown into the deep end of a pool, by our sadistic grandfather. He stood there laughing, and thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever seen.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 8:41 am

It's babies under a year that you can release in a pool and they learn to swim. I wouldn't wouldn't it, but that's what I've heard.

Throwing older kids who can't swim doesn't teach them anything and is dangerous. I imagine the dad just didn't know his child couldn't swim.

amother

Navy

Tue, Oct 12 2021, 8:56 am

amother [ RosePink ] wrote:

Causing trauma doesn’t equal abuse.

Intent is very important.
Parents make mistakes
Parents mistakes sometimes cause everlasting injury - either emotional or physical. That doesn’t make it abuse.

If he threw his son in the pool to punish him or to scare him or show he is in charge then it may be abuse.

If he threw him in the pool during a moment of stupidly thinking his son would get a kick out of it or it would be funny or thought he could swim then that isn't abuse - just stupidy with high risks.

amother

Sunflower

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 5:28 am

I am a swimming instructor. The only times I have ever thrown a little baby in was if I was a few inches away to catch them if they didn’t start floating. To do it with an older child I would never do. I have forced kids to let go of me/ the wall but that’s with me within reach.

amother

Melon

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:52 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

Omg can people please stop posting this? There are no babies that can automatically swim. It may be possible for some very young infants to be trained to survive (turn on their backs) when they find themselves in the water. They need to be trained to do so. No babies are thrown in and start swimming. I live in Australia where it's common for babies under a year to go to "swimming" lessons. You're just standing holding your babies in the water, singing songs, maybe dunking them under water briefly, maybe blowing bubbles. It helps them feel comfortable in the water for when you do start proper swim.

Nobody is just releasing their babies in the water. Maybe over time your baby will learn to kick and swim. But you don't just release your baby in the water.

amother

Navy

Wed, Oct 13 2021, 8:58 am

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

You are describing mommy and me swimming lessons for fun. Not for survival.

The lessons were they teach babies to survive the mothers are not allowed to be present bec it is too scary for them. And it is one on one with the instructor and baby. Not a group