I am so upset! adults hitting, shouting at etc. children

mimivan

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 9:45 am

Ora wrote:

Quote:

BTW I know people--usually from middle/upper middle class american families--who were spanked lightly and resent it, but I also know plenty of people--usually from the same background one generation earlier or children of immigrants--who were mamash beaten if they did something really bad, and they think it was OK and even thank their parents for raising them right and keeping them out of trouble. I think in the end the real difference between what a child perceives as (and reacts to as) normal family behavior vs. abuse might have more to do with what society deems normal than with the behavior itself.

And here lies another difficulty with corporal punishment...since society deems it so socially unacceptable, how will a child feel when he finds out his parents form of discipline is considered by many to be abuse? Will he respect his parents? or will he always have to second-guess what his parents did...and since we aren't perfect, could we withstand that kind of judgment...

I see parents who are very very strict but wouldn't lift a hand to their kids and their kids are well-disciplined...on the other hand, parents who rely on hitting often have wild kids, because they aren't really taught anything

(I know this wasn't what you were talking about Ora, and I too know people from the Old Country who said their parents loved them in spite of beatings, but that is light years away from where we are now, and I wouldn't want my kids to have those conflicting feelings of "did they do the right thing?"

BTW as regards to Torah, I heard a Rav comment Spare the rod, spoil the child...the rod was meant to be a shepherd's rod to guide, not a rod to beat someone with...

and the physical punishments in the Torah...The Sanhedrin rarely sentenced people and only when they were warned etc...according to Kabbala, the physical punishments were meant to instruct us regarding the spiritual damage done by sins, to give us a gauge...

Blossom

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 10:24 am

Quote:

I think that anyone who really believes in potching or yelling at kids when they do something "really bad," should take parenting classes, speak to a professional

Interesting that you're saying that because the parenting class I went to she was against hitting except for in dangerous circumstances like when a child crosses the street. I'm not saying a name but her classes are very popular. I myself don't follow it exactly, especially the hitting part but just wanted to say that there are professionals and parenting classes that do hold of hitting in a danger situation.

Quote:

I was taught that if you punish, by din you have to punish immediately. there is a story somewhere in the Gemara about a father who said he would punish his son afterwards and the son got so scared that he ended up killing himself. Hence, never say "I will punish you when I calm down." Better a potch now than a hanging sentence.

Right. I remember that story. It is a very important point. I hate when people say "Just wait till we get home or wait till your father gets home".
Why put a child through that fear. Plus teaching him on the spot when it's still fresh is usually more effective.

gryp

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 10:38 am

I don't understand why a parent would spank a child for running into the street.
When my 4 yr old ran around the corner yesterday out of my sight, I explained to him once we got home why I need to be able to see him even when he's running ahead. I didn't scare the daylights out of him about strangers kidnapping small kids but I explained as much as I thought he could handle and understand. The lesson he learned went a lot further than any spank would, and a spank would not guarantee that he wouldn't do it again, while knowing the dangers of the world around him will stay with him for life.
If we're talking toddlers younger than that, I personally believe kids who don't walk nicely should be in strollers or holding the parent's hand. Spanking a child who is likely to run off for running off, in my opinion, is parent's negligence and no way does a child get spanked for what his parent does wrong.
I know people do things differently, but that's my opinion.

mimivan

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 10:43 am

GR wrote:

Excellent points as usual GR...

particularly the second point, because few actually consider it from this point of view...

It is also kind of illogical to teach a child to avoid physical danger by hitting the child, no?

gryp

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 1:04 pm

My 4 yr old is pretty sensitive to what he sees/hears. He's going through nightmares stages. He's gotten less scared since this stage started but my point is that never would I scare kids enough to haunt or traumatize them. I heard that you should tell kids only the information that they can handle, enough that they are aware of danger and what they can do to avoid danger or what to do CH"V in a time of danger, but only what pertains to them specifically at that stage.

There is no need to give specific details and to scare kids out of their wits. But we do teach our children a general rule of not talking to strangers.

Tefila

Thu, Apr 10 2008, 11:00 pm

Quote:

I think a lot about abused children, about these innocent little things and how some of them are treated and it just makes me very sad.

As it would do any normal compassionate person . But at the same token that same amount of time that oneis 'obsessing' about how awful things are they can be making 'concrete' steps to make things better. If not for that particular case then, for someone else.
SO though I cannot change a past of an abused child/victim I could change a future, even if it just means a smile from a warm loving person or exchange of kind words etc so at the very least that person knows the world still has kindness in it and it is reachable.

redhot

Fri, Apr 11 2008, 1:35 am

Blossom wrote:

micki wrote:

today we were in boro park and I saw a mother smacking, and I mean practically pounding her kid about 5 again and again. she had a stroller and was pounding on him anywhere she could. the kid was laughing.
my kids saw it and said, and were very silent. my son said, I think that kid is being bad.

I was quite disturbed by it.

Micki, I know everybody is different but I definitely would've gone up to that woman and given her a piece of my mind.

me too. I think all of us have a responsibility to stop abuse if we see it. if that is happening in public, imagine how much worse it is at home. Noone is helping those children from their hellish lives. We all must.

I stand by what I said earlier- if I saw a parent abusing their child I would either confront the person, or call the cops.

marina

Fri, Apr 11 2008, 10:30 am

Quote:

If we're talking toddlers younger than that, I personally believe kids who don't walk nicely should be in strollers or holding the parent's hand. Spanking a child who is likely to run off for running off, in my opinion, is parent's negligence and no way does a child get spanked for what his parent does wrong.
I know people do things differently, but that's my opinion.

Well, of course everyone is holding their kids hands. But a two-three-four year old can easily yank himself out of your hand and into the street. I would patch for running into the street no problem. Better a smack now than a wheelchair later. A two year old is not going to understand blah,blah blah about strangers and kidnappings. And yeah, of course, you also say that we are going inside now because you did that, but sometimes you can't, like if you are walking to shul, etc.

Also, the point of a spanking for running in the street is not to punish the child for something you or he did wrong. It is to create an immediate association between this action and something bad, I.e., pain so the child stops before doing it again on an impulse.