The two teams of Torah Jews

Congresswoman

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:20 pm

I sometimes follow threads where people go round and round arguing about Halacha, chumra, shita, opinion and so on and on.......

People often assert their stand with requests of “bring me a source that shows it’s allowed” or vise versa.

So I realized there are two camps of Torah abiding Jews:

Team A - everything is allowed unless it says otherwise.
Team B - everything is forbidden unless it says otherwise.

Which is correct?

watergirl

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:25 pm

You have it wrong. There are no "teams". There are people who post their own personal or community thing as if it's the same for everyone, or as if it SHOULD be for everyone. People who do that, people who tell everyone else they are wrong and they are right - those are the ones who are asked to bring the source. If someone writes "this is what my family does" or "this is what my rav says to do" or "this is how I was taught", there would be a lot less upset, defensiveness, and asking for sources.

Incidentally, there is one person here who really surprised me. She is known as one of the people here with more "extreme" leanings. I asked for a source and she pmed me and sent me a lot of information! I love learning and I was glad she recognized me as someone who wanted to know, and not as someone who was challenging her.

English3

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:29 pm

I think it's both. We are allowed to enjoy all pleasures in life even what is not specifically stated in halacha however when we come across a new item, or opportunity which we are not sure we treat it as forbidden until verified.

Living Princess

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:46 pm

A takes a greater Talmid Chacham to permit than to forbid. But if a person chooses to be more stringent it doesn't mean they're foolish either. At the same time if a person doesn't know basic halacha they will transgress. The main thing is to have a Rav and be consistent while striving for growth.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 3:33 pm

Congresswoman wrote:

Neither is correct. And that is why the discussions go round and round and round Smile

Because A and B wont ever agree on many many things.

Congresswoman

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:30 pm

Crookshanks wrote:

Judaism isn't split into 2 camps. I don't even agree with the premise, so I can't take a side Cool

Well not literally... duh
Just using this (somewhat satire) description for how posters here present their cases.
The way I wrote this is for the sake of a discussion.
I’d love to hear your input.

Crookshanks

Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:47 pm

Congresswoman wrote:

Well not literally... duh
Just using this (somewhat satire) description for how posters here present their cases.
The way I wrote this is for the sake of a discussion.
I’d love to hear your input.

I'd love to be able to discuss it but honestly I can't argue for either side! They're both extremes, which I try to avoid as much as possible.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 4:09 am

Crookshanks wrote:

I'd love to be able to discuss it but honestly I can't argue for either side! They're both extremes, which I try to avoid as much as possible.

How are they both extremes? What other options are there?

salt

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 4:20 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

How are they both extremes? What other options are there?

Many things do not need to be proven or found in the sources. One just uses common sense or compares to similar cases that already exist.

Only if one has reason to believe that something might be forbidden, and is not quite knowledgeable enough to decide that for himself, does he need it to be proven to him one way or another, or shown a source, or be told by a rav.

ora_43

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 4:22 am

English3 wrote:

This.

I don't think anyone really thinks everything is forbidden unless proven otherwise. More like, the things they've been taught are forbidden, are forbidden unless proven otherwise.

On this site, it's mostly going to be specifically hareidi/chassidic posters asking MO posters "show me a source that it's OK for married women to show hair... show me a source that says chalav nochri is allowed..." etc. But honestly, if MO people were challenged on MO practices, we'd be saying the same. Like, if someone told me it's OK to eat vegetarian food in (non-vegan) non-kosher restaurants, I'd be the one saying "show me the source for that."

salt

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 4:25 am

Many times, when someone says on this site "give me a source" - it's just because they think the other person is so way off with their opinion (or 'psak') they they will only be willing to come close to agreeing that it could be a valid opinion, if a reliable source is brought.

It is not because they will change their mind, or suddenly allow the forbidden, or forbid the permitted.

sequoia

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 8:07 am

ora_43 wrote:

You would eat in a vegan place?

2cents

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 8:16 am

Neither group because we have some umbrella concepts like "ועשית הטוב והישר בעיני ה" and "נבל ברשות התורה" and a couple ma'amarai chazal to that effect too.

singleagain

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 8:27 am

2cents wrote:

Neither group because we have some umbrella concepts like "ועשית הטוב והישר בעיני ה" and "נבל ברשות התורה" and a couple ma'amarai chazal to that effect too.

Can you please translate that Hebrew? Thank you very much.

ora_43

Thu, Jan 13 2022, 5:21 am

sequoia wrote:

You would eat in a vegan place?

Not if there was a kosher option.

If there wasn't, and there was some need to go to a restaurant - depends on the meal, depends on the place.

There are still issues - checking for bugs, status of pots and pans, supervision... But I have seen responsa allowing certain things in certain situations.