Chassidish move to Florida

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Jan 20 2022, 11:20 pm

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I live near the F train in Boro Park and we see plenty of untznius all summer long, people heading to the train. I've been in Miami several times and I don't think it's worse there than in Brooklyn on a hot summer day.

I'm talking about the kosher groceries and restaurants. Not about what you see on the main streets. Yes, you will be standing in line behind ladies in tank tops or sleeveless crop tops on erev shabbos at the deli counter or checking out at the cash register.

amother

Melon

Thu, Jan 20 2022, 11:47 pm

mizle10 wrote:

You had me until you mentioned 41st street. You need to be blind not to see any pritzus on 41st.

Was thinking exactly the same.
You can’t compare it to a regular are. You just can’t
Separate thing op, and all Miami people please don’t get insulted, but Miami is a more modern oot community. You can’t compare it to Cleveland or Chicago or Montreal for example.
I know there’s a Kollel and I know there are some yeshivish families (I know many of them personally) but coming from another oot community, you just can’t compare it to the other large communities that have a much larger and stronger yeshivish base.
Your child’s class will be a much much broader mix of kids then in the other big oot cities

amother

Whitesmoke

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 12:04 am

amother [ Honey ] wrote:

You would first need a chassidish school and cheder in order for you not to change your lifestyle.

Agreed. There is almost no chance that your kids will not want to be like their friends.

It's different growing up as the rabbi's kids, and it's also a different generation. I dont think you can compare. When you are there as a the leader it's very different. I remember those girls in camp who came from out of town where their fathers were rabbis, there were many sacrifices they had to make for being different, it was hard for them. Are you really going to instill in your children a love for chassidishkeit and varimkeit while their friends are watching, have TV's at home, dress with short sleeves at age 11 etc? Are you committed to do this? And to fight with your children over so many different things?

Just trying to point out some of the struggles you might encounter. Many of us would love to move to south florida, but remember that there is a reason most chassidim havent moved. And the ones who have are mostly not 'ultra' chassidish, as you called yourself.

If there is a strong existing kehilla with a school, it's a different story.

amother

Clear

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 12:06 am

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

Interesting you say that. I've lived for many years in one of those OOT communities you mentioned and have now lived in NMB for a decent number of years, and I find the demographics quite similar...

Regarding the pritzus, I don't find it different than the other OOT city either. The summer is the summer in any state and in the winter here people cover up, it's cold for us when it's low 70s! Also I never go to 41st or to the beach so I have no idea what the pritzus is like there. But it's not a part of regular living here, it's only a part of vacationing here. I wouldn't say that the kosher supermarkets in NMB are very pritzusdik either, not sure what you are referring to.

That being said, there are only a handful of chassidish families here and I'd consider them mostly to be "chassidish-lite". There has been talk about opening a chasidish cheder here for YEARS already. Is it any closer to actually happening? Maybe. But it's still quite a ways off IMO.

OP, if your oldest is only 3, I don't think culture shock is really a thing so young. If you do move here, this will just become his normal...

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 3:36 am

I'm a Floridian and surprised as those who say there's little pritzus, most non frum/ non jews etc. in Florida wear tank tops and shorts as their regular wardrobe.
I also noticed many same gender couples walking the streets holding hands.
I'm pretty sure kids see this even if adults make believe it doesn't exist.

Anyone considering moving here, spend a few weeks in July and August before making the decision.
Winter and summer are very very different.

Today's kids are not the same as the generation many oof s grew up in.

Florida is not for families looking for handouts, you need a solid job or 2 to make it.

It's an amazing state, but not for everyone and I believe anyone wanting a more insular neighborhood will be shocked.

Those suggesting Tampa, after the whole debacle there, there are people looking to build the community up, the people I know say it's a mix of people running away from an insular community, not necessarily Bec that want oyt, just a little less oversight. But it sounds like there's a real effort to make it rise from the ashes, so to speak.

singsong

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 7:58 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Sure, I think it's great. But you need to be prepared to handle that and understand your kids will be exposed to that. Not everyone is going to be ok with this fact of life about living in Miami, especially if they are coming from very insulated community where everyone generally is dressed modestly, frumwise, even if not to your specific standards.
And don't forget, it's year round not just in summer.

Okay - I guess I just can't fathom living in a bubble like that.

amother

Seashell

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 8:23 am

singsong wrote:

Let me put this down in the out-of-town, ahavas yisroel perspective: How amazing is it that there are people who do not dress tznius but hold the mitzvah of kosher in such high regard that they are willing to pay a premium for kosher food. IMO that is a beautiful thing to teach children and it's something the "in-town" kids miss out on.

This is not a chinuch I want to give over to my children. Maybe they can understand that nuance when they are adults but not as children.
Of course you can give your children over a different chinuch and that is good for you and them.
Hashem gave me my children and your yours because He knows what chinuch is the best for them.

amother

Clear

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 8:38 am

amother [ Whitesmoke ] wrote:

If you are willing to mingle with the Yeshivish crowd, they can easily have friends who don't have TVs and don't wear short sleeves past preschool. I'm part of that community. Not saying your kids will stay chassidush though..

amother

Clear

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 8:40 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

True, it's like that here in July and August, sure. But as a Floridan, have you spent significant time living in other parts of the US? People dress that way in the summer all across America...

amother

DarkPurple

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 9:04 am

amother [ Clear ] wrote:

True, it's like that here in July and August, sure. But as a Floridan, have you spent significant time living in other parts of the US? People dress that way in the summer all across America...

We live in Israel and are no where near chassidish. To be clear, my dds wear shorts (not short-shorts, but shorts nonetheless) in the summer.

We visited Miami Beach last autumn (we have a close relative there). And we were shocked. People literally walking around the streets in beach wear (bikini tops, no shirts for men, bikini bottoms with a very sheer cover).

The way of dress was a lot skimpier than you usually ever see in Tel Aviv (besides for the beach of course). It was as if all of Miami Beach was considered a beach area.

And yes, there were lots of same gender couples on the street if that bothers you (but it was gay pride week, so maybe because of that).

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 9:27 am

amother [ Clear ] wrote:

True, it's like that here in July and August, sure. But as a Floridan, have you spent significant time living in other parts of the US? People dress that way in the summer all across America...

My point was the Floridians dress like that the majority of the year.

July and August comment wasn't about tznius, they are the most brutal heat months for anyone leaving a/c controlled spaces and walking to shul or anywhere on Shabbos, it's really bad. The intense humidity goes from April-May to about November, it comes with daily downpours.

I love Florida, encourage people I know to move here, but the main negatives are:

*Non tznius/pritzus for much longer than other places
*Tropical hot, humid unbearable weather for many months of the year
*Job market is tougher, less social services and freebies

I'm a big red state advocate and really hope any blue state transplants are coming to escape and embrace Florida for its common sense.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 9:51 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

But that is precisely what chinuch should be. Chinuch includes teaching kids how to navigate the world, understand and respect other people. Nuances don't magically gain understanding in adulthood & not having the aforementioned knowledge is a handicap, not a plus. Teaching kids only to live in their own bubble is partial chinuch. Chinuch encompasses so much more.

amother

Seashell

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 9:53 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Chinuch is teaching your children everything in the Torah, about Hashem and schar vonesh, oilam haba.
Our das torah tells us not to be mechanech children the same way yours does.
Maybe your chinuch is a handicap in terms of yiddishkeit, but you have your das torah and we have ours.
Your chinuch is for your child and mine is for mine.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 10:08 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Chinuch is that plus more - As per the Torah, we also need to educate our children in a manner that teaches them how to navigate the world, and to be a light onto nations. Restricting kids in a bubble significantly limits the former and affects the latter. If we don't demonstrate understanding and respect to our fellow brothers and interact appropriately with our secular neighbors, then we aren't looked well upon. Children see and absorb everything that we do. If we deny them this understanding, they may never develop it.

I respect your decision and your Daas Torah. I do want to point out that I hail from a similar community (chassidishe here), and likely share leaders. Daas Torah often responds in a manner to the questions posed and who is asking. If we discuss our mindsets and views and ask for guidance, we get advice accordingly. They generally don't offer one size fits all answers even to the same community members. Daas Torah fleshes out your perspectives and responds in kind.

I'm pointing that out because it's important to realize where we are with our own growth levels and mindsets. As people gain deeper understanding to life, their views go along with it. Different people are at different stages even within one's own community. You mentioned earlier than you believe nuances are gained in adulthood. Some people never do that, some do that quickly and some do that later. For many, the nuances that our children have difficulty navigating the outside world only comes later, and up till that point they lack the understanding of it. For others, the children don't have difficulty or never step out of the bubble, so never come to that awareness. And yet others, pretend that difficulty doesn't exist because they themselves never developed the understanding of it.

amother

Honey

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 10:14 am

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

A huge part of chinuch is being in the right sevivah (environment). In pirkei avos they mention a few times the importance of good neighbors and specifically about not moving to a place of no Torah. Fact is that friends and neighbors have a huge impact on kids and even adults. To say you’d rather live in a place of pritzus because it’s better chinuch is a wrong mentality. If you have no choice, or already live there you can focus on being mechanech your kids this way. Right now we are talking about those who are still making a decision about moving there.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Jan 21 2022, 10:15 am

amother [ Honey ] wrote:

There's a middle road here. As with most life situations, either extreme is no good.

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:11 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I see your POV as a valid and legitimate approach (although different from my own) but you need to realize that Miami is not going to be the place where you can raise your young children in the insulated way you are describing.