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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Kosher Kitchen
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amother
Charcoal
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 Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:09 am
They really do and we should insist on it!
But as long as people buy their stuff without one why should they bother! Its an additional expense and hassle and you need to stick to certain rules!
Officially most hechsheirim require the food made in a separate part of the kitchen with its own oven. Think if she has lots of orders she might use her milk or meat oven. For some ppl that’s ok because they themselves only have one oven and burn it out. For others it’s not. Same with ingredients. Is k enough? Ou? Or do you eat only heimish hechsher. What about sifting flour? Fruits and vegetables that need to be checked?
And yes paying for something is different than accepting food from a neighbor or meal train. And some ppl will be careful with that too. Some shuls and halls do not allow any food sent or brought in without a hechsher.
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amother
Smokey
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:14 am
| amother [ Dustypink ] wrote: | | In Israel, you cannot get a hechsher on a home-based business. The Rabbanut simply won't allow it. You can choose to buy from someone on your own, though it's generally not advised, because although you can eat in the kitchen of someone you trust, once there's a business transaction, the rules change. I don't buy from private sellers. |
A family member of mine has a home based business. In order for them to have a hechsher-they have badatz- the business had to be in a separate room with access from outside the apartment. They can't go from their apartment into that room (they blocked that door and made another going to outside)to keep it separate for the hashgacha
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amother
Oldlace
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:15 am
| amother [ Latte ] wrote: | There was a session at the Agudah convention from Rabbi Fishbane of the CRC describing how an event in a shul in Lakewood recently served treif fish sushi to the guests and it’s not at all isolated. Party planners are the new Wild West. They often source from private individuals with dubious halacha standards and the public has no clue.
He says basically in the last few years we have all started doing the equivalent of eating in restaurants with no hechsher. Really eye opening and frightening.
https://agudah.org/watch-aguda.....oday/ |
For this who asked. The story is
5:15-7:00
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DrMom
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:19 am
If somebody I knew and at whose house I would eat started a home business, I would have no problem buying her food.
But I would not buy from a stranger without a hashgacha.
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amother
Latte
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:25 am
| amother [ Dustypink ] wrote: | | In Israel, you cannot get a hechsher on a home-based business. The Rabbanut simply won't allow it. You can choose to buy from someone on your own, though it's generally not advised, because although you can eat in the kitchen of someone you trust, once there's a business transaction, the rules change. I don't buy from private sellers. |
From what I remember from trying to order something for my daughter in seminary in Israel , none of the places that advertise breakfast/ baskets/ treats etc. in Mishpacha and the other frum publications have any hechsher. They will merely claim that they are using “badatz ingredients” and expect you to trust them.
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First Lady
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:27 am
I will not buy from a home based business without a Hashgacha.
Especially if it's for someone else or for a Simcha.
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amother
Oak
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:54 am
Hechsherim the way we have them today, didn't exist 200 years ago and all the way into the past. This bureaucratic thing of putting a stamp and a certificate on everything and having a multitude of different hechsherim is relatively new. If you look at books about halacha from the 19th century, there is no mention of organized hechsherim. Which hechsher did the baker in the shtetl have? What do you think our ancestors all did? They trusted whom they knew one could trust to keep kosher.
Industrialization and commercialization of food production made the "invention" of hechsherim necessary on the industrial/commercial/restaurant level. But introducing that concept to the friends & neighbors level is a new idea, and not a good one, in my opinion.
Once, kashrut separated frum Jews from secular Jews and from gentiles.
Now, does it really have to be used to separate frum Jews from each other? Is that its purpose? That every family sits alone at home and eats pre-packaged and stamped food only?
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alef12
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 11:56 am
| vintagebknyc wrote: | | Are home food businesses legal? Don’t they need to be in commercial kitchens? |
I have a "home processors license" from NY state. It limits the types of foods I can sell, regulates what has to be on my labels, how I can sell etc... My business is 100% legal
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amother
Latte
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 12:10 pm
| amother [ Oak ] wrote: | Hechsherim the way we have them today, didn't exist 200 years ago and all the way into the past. This bureaucratic thing of putting a stamp and a certificate on everything and having a multitude of different hechsherim is relatively new. If you look at books about halacha from the 19th century, there is no mention of organized hechsherim. Which hechsher did the baker in the shtetl have? What do you think our ancestors all did? They trusted whom they knew one could trust to keep kosher.
Industrialization and commercialization of food production made the "invention" of hechsherim necessary on the industrial/commercial/restaurant level. But introducing that concept to the friends & neighbors level is a new idea, and not a good one, in my opinion.
Once, kashrut separated frum Jews from secular Jews and from gentiles.
Now, does it really have to be used to separate frum Jews from each other? Is that its purpose? That every family sits alone at home and eats pre-packaged and stamped food only? |
It used to be far more simple. There was a kosher butcher and a kosher winemaker and it was really hard to come across non kosher ingredients.
Today there are hundreds of flavorings and thousands of additives so that even the most innocent sounding items can have issues. It used to be unheard of for bread to have non kosher ingredients. Today bread can have a dozen ingredients including actual treif.
Innocent looking items suck as plain tomato sauce are often cooked in a giant retort together with cans of ham.
Rabbi Fishbane mentioned on the speech that many many people in Lakewood drink Starbucks refreshe’s drinks without realizing that they contain significant grape juice and are yayin nesech.
A good person who sincerely wants to do the right thing can easily be selling a treif product without realizing it. There a simply no comparison to 200 years ago.
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amother
Oak
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 12:42 pm
| amother [ Latte ] wrote: | It used to be far more simple. There was a kosher butcher and a kosher winemaker and it was really hard to come across non kosher ingredients.
Today there are hundreds of flavorings and thousands of additives so that even the most innocent sounding items can have issues. It used to be unheard of for bread to have non kosher ingredients. Today bread can have a dozen ingredients including actual treif.
Innocent looking items suck as plain tomato sauce are often cooked in a giant retort together with cans of ham.
Rabbi Fishbane mentioned on the speech that many many people in Lakewood drink Starbucks refreshe’s drinks without realizing that they contain significant grape juice and are yayin nesech.
A good person who sincerely wants to do the right thing can easily be selling a treif product without realizing it. There a simply no comparison to 200 years ago. |
I wrote that industrial production made hechsherim necessary.
But your frum neighbor presumably doesn't cook her tomatoes next to ham.
Starbuck's drinks are also a commercial product, not homemade, and therefore need a hechsher or at least a very good ingredients check. Nothing to do with home cooked food.
Which mistakes could a *frum* woman who bakes cheesecake or challah for friends and neighbors make?
I live in Israel, where treif ingredients are a lot harder to come by accidentally, maybe that shapes my attitude.
I trust all our neighbors' kashrut as I trust my own. They are frum and know the same halachot that I do. Also, homemade food of the kind they make here, doesn't contain many highly processed ingredients. Can I swear no one of them ever made an innocent mistake? No. But I can't be certain for myself, either.
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amother
Aqua
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 12:57 pm
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I was actually disappointed bec 2 people I know have home businesses making cake and pastries type of food. BOTH have pics on Instagram with strawberries with the tops still on. When I asked one of them (when ordering something), she said it’s up to you how you want her to prepare them. Which makes no sense - if there’s no mainstream hechsher that allows them to be prepared that way, why is she using that standard at all, ever? It just made me uneasy about the whole thing. Like does she really know Halacha, is she following star k/ ou/ etc when preparing food?
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amother
Oldlace
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 12:59 pm
| amother [ Oak ] wrote: | I wrote that industrial production made hechsherim necessary.
But your frum neighbor presumably doesn't cook her tomatoes next to ham.
Starbuck's drinks are also a commercial product, not homemade, and therefore need a hechsher or at least a very good ingredients check. Nothing to do with home cooked food.
Which mistakes could a *frum* woman who bakes cheesecake or challah for friends and neighbors make?
I live in Israel, where treif ingredients are a lot harder to come by accidentally, maybe that shapes my attitude.
I trust all our neighbors' kashrut as I trust my own. They are frum and know the same halachot that I do. Also, homemade food of the kind they make here, doesn't contain many highly processed ingredients. Can I swear no one of them ever made an innocent mistake? No. But I can't be certain for myself, either. |
Are we talking buying and eating from neighbors?
Buying from strangers?
Buying and giving to others to serve at a simcha?
To me these are 3 different categories.
For someone in the USA to order from an ad in Israel that says they use Badatz ingredients to send to a simcha doesn’t sound that great.
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amother
Latte
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 12:59 pm
| amother [ Oak ] wrote: | I wrote that industrial production made hechsherim necessary.
But your frum neighbor presumably doesn't cook her tomatoes next to ham.
Starbuck's drinks are also a commercial product, not homemade, and therefore need a hechsher or at least a very good ingredients check. Nothing to do with home cooked food.
Which mistakes could a *frum* woman who bakes cheesecake or challah for friends and neighbors make?
I live in Israel, where treif ingredients are a lot harder to come by accidentally, maybe that shapes my attitude.
I trust all our neighbors' kashrut as I trust my own. They are frum and know the same halachot that I do. Also, homemade food of the kind they make here, doesn't contain many highly processed ingredients. Can I swear no one of them ever made an innocent mistake? No. But I can't be certain for myself, either. |
Most homemade business that I know don’t just go to NPGS for ingredients. It’s not economical. They go to suppliers. Additionally they often need specialty items. This is not your neighbor sending you her home baked shalach manos.
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NotInNJMommy
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:04 pm
It can be a slippery slope for the business owner and the customer to not go under a third party certification. (Note, I said slippery slope, not verboten)
It can be putting a stumbling block before the owner to be tempted to rule too leniently on close calls, etc., and it can be a stumbling block to the buyer (or who they are feeding) to be potentially eating something not up to appropriate standards.
So, a benefit to a third party is to, ideally, remove/prevent that stumbling block on both sides.
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keym
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:09 pm
| amother [ Oak ] wrote: | I wrote that industrial production made hechsherim necessary.
But your frum neighbor presumably doesn't cook her tomatoes next to ham.
Starbuck's drinks are also a commercial product, not homemade, and therefore need a hechsher or at least a very good ingredients check. Nothing to do with home cooked food.
Which mistakes could a *frum* woman who bakes cheesecake or challah for friends and neighbors make?
I live in Israel, where treif ingredients are a lot harder to come by accidentally, maybe that shapes my attitude.
I trust all our neighbors' kashrut as I trust my own. They are frum and know the same halachot that I do. Also, homemade food of the kind they make here, doesn't contain many highly processed ingredients. Can I swear no one of them ever made an innocent mistake? No. But I can't be certain for myself, either. |
According to my Rav, once money is involved, everyone is suspect.
Meaning I trust you and you trust me that if I'm making you a kugel for Shabbos and I find a blood spot, I'll dump the egg.
But many hold that money plays with a person's mind.
If I can potentially lose lots of money, can I assume I'd dump that egg?
Well of course I'd like to believe that I would but if I'm honest with myself, I don't know...
The desire to make money is strong.
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amother
DarkYellow
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:11 pm
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In boro park, halls and school dinners won't accept anything without a hechsher and in order to have a hechsher you need to have a separate kitchen not used for anything else. Some people rent a commercial kitchen at night. Some people have a separate kitchen in their house and some people rent a small apartment they can work out of
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SYA
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:17 pm
| amother [ Oak ] wrote: | Hechsherim the way we have them today, didn't exist 200 years ago and all the way into the past. This bureaucratic thing of putting a stamp and a certificate on everything and having a multitude of different hechsherim is relatively new. If you look at books about halacha from the 19th century, there is no mention of organized hechsherim. Which hechsher did the baker in the shtetl have? What do you think our ancestors all did? They trusted whom they knew one could trust to keep kosher.
Industrialization and commercialization of food production made the "invention" of hechsherim necessary on the industrial/commercial/restaurant level. But introducing that concept to the friends & neighbors level is a new idea, and not a good one, in my opinion.
Once, kashrut separated frum Jews from secular Jews and from gentiles.
Now, does it really have to be used to separate frum Jews from each other? Is that its purpose? That every family sits alone at home and eats pre-packaged and stamped food only? |
Some examples:
Chalov Yisroel versus chalav stam
As chabad, the Kashering process is a higher temperature and more.
Meat - kosher versus glatt kosher, or versus chassidishe (you can go specific as some communities are more stringent in certain areas in regards to shchita, bodek or even melicha…)
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SYA
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:20 pm
| amother [ DarkYellow ] wrote: | | In boro park, halls and school dinners won't accept anything without a hechsher and in order to have a hechsher you need to have a separate kitchen not used for anything else. Some people rent a commercial kitchen at night. Some people have a separate kitchen in their house and some people rent a small apartment they can work out of |
In Crown Heights almost the same.
Birthday parties all must be under a reliable hechsher and they are specific. No home baked goods.
As for the halls most are under the local hechsher and no outside food. Any item you bring personally, the caterer checks if it is sealed with a label from the local hechsher. I know that the weddings and bar mitzvahs are all high standards.
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LovesHashem
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:22 pm
| amother [ Oak ] wrote: | Hechsherim the way we have them today, didn't exist 200 years ago and all the way into the past. This bureaucratic thing of putting a stamp and a certificate on everything and having a multitude of different hechsherim is relatively new. If you look at books about halacha from the 19th century, there is no mention of organized hechsherim. Which hechsher did the baker in the shtetl have? What do you think our ancestors all did? They trusted whom they knew one could trust to keep kosher.
Industrialization and commercialization of food production made the "invention" of hechsherim necessary on the industrial/commercial/restaurant level. But introducing that concept to the friends & neighbors level is a new idea, and not a good one, in my opinion.
Once, kashrut separated frum Jews from secular Jews and from gentiles.
Now, does it really have to be used to separate frum Jews from each other? Is that its purpose? That every family sits alone at home and eats pre-packaged and stamped food only? |
Loads of processed food is made by non Jewish manufacturers. If you ever read the Mashgiach travels column in the Mishpacha Jr you'll see how many times he's found them putting cheese in pareve bread, using non kosher ingredients, stamping non kosher things with a hescher.
In Israel we deal with terumah, maaser, orlah, shmittah. There's cholov Stam and cholov akum. There's bishul akum as well.
In the shtetl everyone was Jewish and frum. No issues of a non jew adding in nonksoher ingredients, turning on the fire, or using milk from a cow milked on shabbos.
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vintagebknyc
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Sun, Jan 23 2022, 1:25 pm
| alef12 wrote: | | I have a "home processors license" from NY state. It limits the types of foods I can sell, regulates what has to be on my labels, how I can sell etc... My business is 100% legal |
Do you have a special kitchen? The people I know who have food businesses all rent space in commercial kitchens, that is why I asked.
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