Grade inflation. Isn't this ultimately harmful?

amother

Daphne

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 12:36 pm

I have a learning disabled child in school. It is its own form of hell.

Your suggestion "to explain to the child" is beyond insane. Not even ridiculous. Just insane.

A parent can explain all they want and not give credence to grades. But the realistic view of grades of what any child gets is developed in a school system (of which grades are key) and among their peers who can achieve those grades.

Going to school and struggling cannot be just explained away. And these are formative years - they are children who are developing their understanding of themselves and the world around them and the systems that they live in.

Trust me, there is NO conversation that can magic away the hell.

And for the friend who became a nurse? Trust me, if she hadn't had scholastic accommodations in younger years, she probably would never ever have even tried to go to nursing school or believed that she could.

amother

Mustard

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:25 pm

I usually find it annoying when I think my child did great (100! Excellent !!) only to find out they got more like an 80. My child is academically inclined and an 80 probably means she needs to put in more effort.

However there was an exception I appreciated. My daughter (3rd grade ) totally missed the boat on a math concept which she later mastered. She came home with a 94 on the test. The teacher called me and said she didn’t want dd to feel bad but she actually got a 6!!! LOL!!!

But as a general rule, at least the parents need to know the child’s progress accurately

ora_43

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:27 pm

I see 3 big problems with grading on effort.

First - it turns grades into a statement on Who You Are, instead of a more parve "here's how well you tested on the material." Yeah, it's no fun getting a 70 and realizing you didn't know the material as well as you thought, but it feels a lot worse to get a 70 because your teacher thinks you, personally, are lazy.

Second, let's be realistic - teachers have no idea what amount of effort each student needs to put in. The average math or English teacher might have 3-4 different classes with 30+ students each, are they really in a position to say "Shmuel needs to be spending 5 hours a week on homework, but Moshe only needs to put in 4 hours"? Grading on effort = grading based on the teacher's gut feeling about the kid.

And third - what's the point? If our main goal is to encourage hard work, rather than knowledge, just send kids to work. That's a much much more effective way of encouraging hard work. Or end school at noon each day and let them spend the rest of the day helping around the house. There's no reason to practice making an effort davka in trig class.

#BestBubby

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:30 pm

Elfrida wrote:

In nursing school I had a friend with some kind of learning disability. I didn't ask her and she never told me a diagnosis (if she had one), but she had always recieved adapted tests and papers, and was graded according to what her teachers felt was her standard.

It was a huge struggle for her in nursing school to realize that she was expected to meet an objective standard, and she wasn't going to be given easier exams or allowed to sit with a group who were writing a paper and then be able to put her name on it. The school did give her a lot of encouragement and second chances, but there was no compromising on standards. She almost dropped out, and ended up finishing two years behind the rest of the class.

Her experience with grades in school had made her feel good about herself, but had taught her that the world will accomodate her. It wasn't easy for her to learn that the world doesn't work that way. I'm not sure how much of a favour they really did her.

I am sorry but the Medical Profession is not one where you can make ADAPTATIONS for
LEARNING DISABLED!

This can KILL People.

OMG, I sure hope they don't do these "accomodations" for doctors!

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:37 pm

Am I the only parent who experienced kids grades dropping due to lack of effort? Meaning they would score a grade for achievement but the teacher would decide they didn't study enough and actually deduct points on a whim (despite effort being a separate place on the report card)? Other students who didn't fare as well but actually put in effort got their grades bumped up. There's a reason I have a kid who gave up on caring about grades after behavior of this nature.

There should be a standard achievement mark that's objective on assessments. Room for extra credit for students who want to try to bump it up. A mark for effort to give more context to how well a student is trying. But to combine it all into one grade isn't giving an honest picture on an assessment.

ora_43

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:38 pm

Kids with learning disabilities should get help and/or workarounds to let them earn good grades. Eg let them give an oral presentation instead of sitting a final exam, have someone sit with them and read them the exam questions, give them accurate test grades but give them plenty of easy ways to earn extra credit...

Just constantly hitting kids with bad grades so that they feel like failures is the worst approach. But fake good grades aren't great either.

A system that gives everyone a chance to earn a decent grade, but not necessarily an A, is second-best.

No grades is best of all.

IMHO.

ora_43

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:41 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I am sorry but the Medical Profession is not one where you can make ADAPTATIONS for
LEARNING DISABLED!

This can KILL People.

OMG, I sure hope they don't do these "accomodations" for doctors!

Depends on the adaptation. Obviously nobody should be graduating med school without learning the material, but OTOH it would be a shame if, say, people with dyslexia were barred from becoming doctors, just because teachers were being inflexible about how students learn the material.

amother

Oak

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:43 pm

When I taught high school I made it clear that their test marks, homework, classwork, behavior, and effort are all part of their final mark. They are all important in real life too. Guess what - if you can't behave on a job or be part of a team you have a good chance of losing your job - even if you're brilliant.

amother

Daphne

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 2:53 pm

//Kids with learning disabilities should get help and/or workarounds to let them earn good grades. Eg let them give an oral presentation instead of sitting a final exam, have someone sit with them and read them the exam questions, give them accurate test grades but give them plenty of easy ways to earn extra credit...

Just constantly hitting kids with bad grades so that they feel like failures is the worst approach. But fake good grades aren't great either..//

Ora, I agree with you. But I have not met teachers or administration in yeshiva type schools who would do this. Maybe in public school they need to if its written into their IEPs. But in private schools? I'm pretty helpless. I have spoken to teachers and admin until I am blue in the face or worse. Some extraordinary teachers have translated the hebrew to english. But overall, no one is interested in the extra work that these accommodations need. And yes, I gift them generously on Chanuka!

amother

Poppy

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 3:11 pm

amother [ Daphne ] wrote:

I just stated upthread that I do EXACTLY this.

amother

Daphne

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 3:28 pm

I know you did. I saw it. But you're one in a million! If you're a private school teacher, please know that you are truly special. Your students are lucky to have you. They're lucky if you're a public school teacher, too!

ora_43

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 3:29 pm

Posted so much and still didn't answer OP's actual question Very Happy

So for that question:

JMHO, the main problem with grade inflation isn't that it teaches bad lessons in the long term, it's that it's a sign of lazy teaching in the short term.

IDK maybe I'm being too harsh. But in my experience, the classes where 90% of the class had a B+ or higher were the ones where we barely covered any material. I look back on those now and think, what a waste of time. The classes that were brutal, where even earning an 80 was hard, were actually useful.

(Talking high school and university here, yeah? Not K-8. It's OK if all of the 6-year-olds hear that their paintings are good.)

I don't think kids are all that affected either way by grade inflation, because here's the thing - they know. If you look around and see that everyone else got an A, too, then you know that getting an A isn't very special.

ora_43

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 3:36 pm

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

But are you going to be fired because it didn't take you long enough? Doubtful.

Teamwork and social skills are very important.

Effort for effort's sake is worthless. Sure, put in the effort you need to to do whatever it is you're trying to do, no argument there. But anything beyond that is inefficient. In adult life people get ahead by only doing what they absolutely have to do, and saving their effort for where it matters. Kids shouldn't be punished for doing the same.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 4:56 pm

There's also the aspect of people needing to put in different amounts of effort to achieve the same result.
A kid who is working very hard and getting B's should definitely be acknowledged for effort.
A kid who doesn't need to study much or take notes (I have an auditory learner who retains less if he takes notes) and gets an A on a test shouldn't have the grade demoted on that test because he didn't need to try.

In the workplace, if I know Excel very well and can produce a solid spreadsheet without much time or research, I'm not dinged for that. Actually, the opposite, I'm more likely to get promoted over time.
If I don't know Excel well but show a willingness to get the job done, as long as I'm accomplishing quality work in the time frame expected, I'm also considered a valuable employee. But if the effort is there and there are mistakes often, I'm less likely to get promoted as quickly, I might need a quality analyst reviewing more of my work, but I'll probably not lose my job

Both outcome and effort matter, but they are two separate things.

chanatron1000

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 5:07 pm

In the real world, your boss doesn't accept shoddy work just because you were a good sport and put in a lot of effort, but at the same time, not everyone has the same job.

Last edited by chanatron1000 on Mon, Jan 24 2022, 5:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

SixOfWands

Mon, Jan 24 2022, 5:10 pm

cupcake123 wrote:

I think their should be a box at the bottom of every test. If the child studied for --- amount of hours (whatever is appropriate) he gets 100. Yes on the honor system. Effort should be the only reward. I'm saying this as someone who has a great memory and hardly studied in school yet got 100s.

Then why give exams? Or grades?

There's something to that.

OTOH, you're assuming that the information being tested on is irrelevant. So if the teacher thinks they tried, but didn't retain any information, its fine.

What if the information is actually important?