Know anyone in New Orleans?

Motek

Mon, Sep 05 2005, 9:35 pm

Mandy - I didn't say I prefer anything. I quoted R' Miller to give an example of one (out of many) great men who did not hesitate to verbalize what they considered was G-d's message.

As far as the Lubavitcher Rebbe and the Holocaust, the Previous Rebbe said in 1941:

Quote:

Jews of America! You are doing a great deal for our brothers abroad, and may the Almighty accordingly grant you and your families success in all your endeavors. You must know, however, that the calamities that Jews are undergoing overseas are not accidental. They are the result of an edict from heaven, a punishment for faults in which you too have a share - desecrating Shabbos, eating treifah food, marital impurity, and so forth. The charity that you give is not yet the whole story. One also needs repentance and prayer, for all three together quash severe verdicts

How does this fit with what the Rebbe said?

One way of understanding it is, as it was explained to me:

The Torah is full of cause and effect. Transgress and you'll suffer. The Fr. Rebbe warned about this happening because the Torah says if you sin you'll suffer/die.

The Rebbe of course did not disagree with this.

What the Rebbe emphasized was the incomprehensibility of it all. In other words, cause and effect is something we can observe. That is not synonymous with understanding it. So although the Fr. Rebbe warned people to do teshuva or else, and then people did in fact suffer, this does not explain the Holocaust, and therefore it does not justify it.

But I fail to see what the Holocaust or the Ha'Yom Yom quoted earlier, have to do with this discussion about New Orleans when the Holocaust was about genocide of the Jewish people and Hurricane Katrina was an act of G-d that struck at the United States of America.

amother

Mon, Sep 05 2005, 10:44 pm

Mandy, not signed in.

It seems that explaining Katrina as a punishment for Gaza is an attempt to understand and justify it. Just what you wrote that the Rebbe said we should not do.

And I don't understand your explanation of the hashgacha pratis issue. If chaos comes to the world and good and bad people are affected alike but at the same time, Hashem accounts for every detail and all ramifications etc, etc., then it is not chaos. It is the the regular way of the world with Hashem meting out justice individually. Just happens to be that some people's time was up and the way for them to go was through a hurricane, not cancer or a car crash. In this view point, the hurricane is no different than any other method through which individual people's lives end.

Quote:

But I fail to see what the Holocaust or the Ha'Yom Yom quoted earlier, have to do with this discussion about New Orleans when the Holocaust was about genocide of the Jewish people and Hurricane Katrina was an act of G-d that struck at the United States of America.

You don't see the Holocaust as an act of G-d ? Huh ?

Motek

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 2:40 pm

I agree with Stem.

Mandy wrote:

It seems that explaining Katrina as a punishment for Gaza is an attempt to understand and justify it.

I still fail to seet what the Holocaust has to do with this discussion about New Orleans when the Holocaust was about genocide of the Jewish people and Hurricane Katrina struck at a gentile nation.

Mandy - how do you understand the Ten Plagues and the drowning of the Egyptians at the Sea? Was it a punishment for the Egyptians? How about the Flood? How about the destruction of Sedom?

I see your point/question about hashgacha pratis. There are other hashgacha pratis questions such as what role does exercise, doing routine medical tests, eating properly, have to do with how long you live if Hashem decreed your life span. What role does saying Tefillas Ha'Derech have in protecting your life in your car if your time is up anyway.

This is a big subject which I doubt we will resolve here on the forum. Although it's fine to study the sources on this subject, practically speaking, what we have to know is that Hashem is running the show, that He supervises every detail, that all is fair, that all is with G-d's love, and that we are required to do our part as detailed in Shulchan Aruch, whether it's taking care of our health, driving carefully, not doing dangerous things, etc. while having bitachon that Hashem is caring for us.

amother

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 3:17 pm

Mandy, not signed in :

Quote:

Mandy - how do you understand the Ten Plagues and the drowning of the Egyptians at the Sea? Was it a punishment for the Egyptians? How about the Flood? How about the destruction of Sedom?

I think that events for which the answers are explicitely stated in the Torah are different than when we sit and try to guess what it is that Hashem had in mind. Unless Hashem specifically tells us that such and such event on this and this day is a punishment for this sin, how can we know ? I'm pretty sure that there are even descriptions of catastrophical events in tanach which were NOT punishments. An example that comes to mind is the famine in mitzrayim which was set up for the whole yaakov/yosef situation.

Quote:

Katrina in more clearly a pure act of G-d, no human hand was involved in the tragedy

I think that the many, many people who died as a result of the slow government response would disagree with you on this.

Quote:

There are other hashgacha pratis questions such as what role does exercise, doing routine medical tests, eating properly, have to do with how long you live if Hashem decreed your life span. What role does saying Tefillas Ha'Derech have in protecting your life in your car if your time is up anyway.

I think these issues can be resolved in terms of the natural consequences idea. In other words, the world is set up to function in a certain way and if you step out on to the street in front of a car ( or smoke or any other dangerous activity) Hashem may let the natural consequences occur. I am sure that there are some people who view the hurricane results in this same manner. If you don't follow an evacuation order, the consequence might be drowning. This is not a punishment, but the natural chain of events.

To some extent I agree with this view point but I also think that such a destructive hurricane ( although meteorologist would disagree) is an abberation, a break in nature and . But I do not think that we can say it was a punishment for some specific event b/c then all the people would have to be directly involved, assuming hashgacha pratis.

Thinking about it some more, I realized that there are situations in chumash where Hashem punishes the many for the actions of one. Like the whole Pinchas/Zimri story- 24,000 people were killed b/c of kozbi. How does that work with hashgacha pratis ? What does it mean that Hashem was angry in Egypt and the Jews had to put blood on their door posts to differentiate between themselves and the mitzrim ?

Motek

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 3:46 pm

Mandy wrote:

there are situations in chumash where Hashem punishes the many for the actions of one. Like the whole Pinchas/Zimri story- 24,000 people were killed b/c of kozbi.

incorrect - the 24,000 were killed because they were enticed and sinned with Baal Peor and with the Moavite and Midyanite women

Quote:

What does it mean that Hashem was angry in Egypt and the Jews had to put blood on their door posts to differentiate between themselves and the mitzrim ?

at the Sea, the angels said - these and those (the Jews and the Egyptians) are idol worshipers! The Jews were given two mitzvos: the blood of the Pesach sacrifice and the blood of circumcision. They put the blood on the doorpost to demonstrate these mitzvos for otherwise they were "naked of mitzvos."

as far as thinking of connections between events, the Gemara says that a ship does not sink at the other end of the world except for the Jewish people, everything is connected with the Jewish people

sometimes this connection is more obvious, sometimes less obvious

My husband says that when he grew up, he heard in yeshiva, in the name of the Chofetz Chaim that the reason for the famine and devastation in the India-Bangladesh area was because they are idol worshipers.

Sometimes we can see a clear connection between sin and punishment, other times it's not as obvious.

Everything is mida k'neged mida (measure for measure). With Gaza and Katrina, the parallels are startling: evacuation, destruction of homes, pulling off roofs, need to rebury the dead, looting, the same percentage of people affected.

So there are a number of concepts to bear in mind: 1) everything happens because of the Jews 2) everything happens measure for measure

stem

Wed, Sep 07 2005, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

Mandy, not signed in :

Quote:

Katrina in more clearly a pure act of G-d, no human hand was involved in the tragedy

I think that the many, many people who died as a result of the slow government response would disagree with you on this.

Mandy, I hear your point, but I believe (I hope!) that the government was not purposely slow to respond in order that more people should die. The Nazis purposely went out to kill the Jews. Please don't tell me that you don't see a difference?!

Pearl

Thu, Sep 08 2005, 7:36 am

[quote="Pickle Lady"]

Quote:

I wanted to post that a woman who posted on this site a few times, Chana613 lives (or lived) in New Orleans. She has K"AH 5 children. she is(was) a teacher at a chabad day school in New Orleans. Her family is now homeless after this devestation. B"H her family was able to excape with barely what they were able to put into the car. Familes where her oldest daughter was going to school have put them up temporaly. Friends of her online have set up a way to send her money to help out (pm me and I can send the link).

thanks pickle lady, I just wanted to post that.
chana and her family really do need help.

lucky

Mon, Sep 19 2005, 1:13 pm

This past weekend I spoke to someone who was in New Orleans on behalf of chesed shel emes. They were notified by a family that an elderly man had died, but they had to evacuate and they needed s/o to get the body, so he could be laid to rest according to halacha. It is unbelievable listening to him describe what is going on there. It is a grueling recovery effort. B"H they found the body, got a funeral home to allow threm to do a tahatra there, and buried the man. Crying