Off the derech brother

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Apr 20 2022, 11:12 pm

thesoundofmusic wrote:

I truly dont believe in the being all nice- thats what everyone has been doing for years - and it has not helped. but then again being mean forsure would not help either. I am not bing engaging. I never even invited him to seder. my mother let hi know that seder was by me and he was welcome to come if he wanted to. I never coddle him any more. I am just kind to him. family dynamics around an off the d sibiling are alway quite intricate.

You didnt invite him to the seder but then you expect him to tell you that he is coming? And you expect him to help out and you expect him to play with your kids and you expect him to be happy when you never invited him in the first place? Did you ask him why he is upset? Did you communicate with him that you need his help or that it would be nice for him to play with your kids (play or take care of them while you read the Haggadah)? You claim to be kind to him but you dont even invite him to the seder or ask him why he is upset, etc so that is a contradiction.
There seems to be a lot of dysfunction in the family and I am not sure if he is the actual problem (although him being otd seems to overshadow the actual problem which presumably was already there before he went otd). I dont blame him for the way he reacted and I am not sure why you are upset since you didnt want him at your seder in the first place and after the first miserable night he said he wouldnt show up again so you got what you wanted in the first place (considering that you didnt invite him so you didnt want him there).
If I were in your place then I would focus more on keeping my side of the street clean. In other words, invite him for the seder or whatever the occasion and ask him to confirm at a certain time so you know if he is coming instead of not inviting him and then expecting him to confirm that he is coming. Learn how to communicate your expectations I.e. saying things like: I would appreciate if you can help me out at the seder and play with my kids and then see if he is open to that and what he would be willing to do. Communicate this to him before the event and allow him to say no if he doesnt want to help or play with the kids. If you see that he is not happy then ask him what is wrong and how you can help. Learn to see him as a independent adult instead of your little brother who you expect things from without regards to his feelings or needs.
Perhaps it would be good if you speak to a therapist or join Al-anon to learn how to have a good relationship with him without taking everything he does or says personally but still being able to communicate with him appropriately.

amother

Chicory

Wed, Apr 20 2022, 11:31 pm

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

OMG talk about blaming the victim! Are you for real?! OP don’t pay attention to a word of it.

amother

Cognac

Wed, Apr 20 2022, 11:34 pm

op u r amazing that u acted all nice despite the fact that u were resentful and "boiling" inside. But, I think u dont realize his point of view just like he cant see ur point of view which is why he didnt help or interact etc etc

he really didnt want to be there especially if he is otd for whatever reason, then being at a seder probably brings up a lot of the negative feelings in him but he is showing good midos by showing up ....bec he showed up to make his parents happy...they really wanted him to come....

so he is at a place he really doesnt want to be and he is probably feeling worse negative emotions than u are feeling, and he is trying to keep it in for his parents sake but he didnt when u asked him if....and he was in no mindset to even notice you, your 2 yr old etc

I think u need to accept that he is feeling so negative at the seder so he wont be able to interact/help etc and u cant say its a lack of being a mentch unless u observe him in his environment where he feels comfortable.

at the same time, since u are feeling so negative, I think u need to put ur foot down and not invite him unless ull be able to not feel so turned off/negative feelings when he is there....

its nice to be a "martyr" for otd kids but at the same time u have a right to take care of ur emotional health, so if it bothers u so much maybe its time to tell ur parents not to invite him, but dealing with ur parents(who seem only happy he came) might be difficult

doing him the chesed shldnt come at ur emotional expense if its too much for u...

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Apr 20 2022, 11:40 pm

amother [ Chicory ] wrote:

OMG talk about blaming the victim! Are you for real?! OP don’t pay attention to a word of it.

Who is the victim? Op who had the mitzvah of Kol Difchin by having her brother at her seder even though she never invited him (and would have been in the same situation had he not shown up so not sure why she didnt ask her BIL or mother or MIL or even her own kids for help if she needed help instead of only expecting this brother to help her) or the brother who was expected to confirm his attendance, help out, play with the kids and put a smile on his face when he wasnt invited in the first place and was never asked why he was upset (a clear indication that he/his feelings doesnt matter)? Right. You cant blame his being otd for everything especially since op made it clear that the brother was a scapegoat before he went otd and its clear that this family needs help/therapy if they even want to have a good relationship with the brother.

amother

Peru

Thu, Apr 21 2022, 3:22 am

Wow burgundy you are really twisting things!
Op was hurt by his rudeness, not just that he didn't let her know or help or play with her kids. He told her he wasn't surviving, he said he needed rehab to recuperate from her seder, told her he for sure won't be coming back tomorrow and he doesn't know if he'll be coming to her bar mitzvah...
Op did everything right and it sounds like her family is wonderful too!
Op, no advice (except not to listen to people who say things like burgundy did), but sending love and hugs and chizzuk, just keep remembering how great YOU are!
Mazel Tov and Beshaah Tovah!

Zehava

Thu, Apr 21 2022, 7:37 am

amother [ Peru ] wrote:

Wonderful families don’t have scapegoats and “family mishagessen” AKA dysfunction.
Well… actually they probably do. Most “wonderful” “beautiful” families that I can think of anyway.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Apr 21 2022, 7:49 am

Zehava wrote:

Wonderful families don’t have scapegoats and “family mishagessen” AKA dysfunction.
Well… actually they probably do. Most “wonderful” “beautiful” families that I can think of anyway.

Still, op is not a monster and did nothing wrong. No need to be so rude and harsh to her. She is trying her best. (Ftr, I am the “scapegoat” in my wonderful, beautiful family. Which btw, really is wonderful and beautiful but has its issues like most do.) no excuse for her brother to act this way. Even if there are much deeper reasons for it.

Zehava

Thu, Apr 21 2022, 9:09 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Like I said, that doesn’t give him the right to be rude to her. But it’s also not her job to try to minimize and invalidate his trauma and get him to “move on”, which apparently is her ingrained family role.

amother

Zinnia

Thu, Apr 21 2022, 10:03 am

I think its very clear from his behavior that he was unhappy being at the seder and went because of your parents. That is what he even said. I would speak to him. Because it sounds like you care about him. Also you have to know what you cam expect from him. if hes not religious at this point why qould he want to do the parts of the seder. or the rituals that go along with it. its pointless to him. you also should be very validating because there is 2 sides to every picture. I would call him and say darling brother thank you so much for you presents at the seder it meant alot to our parents that you were there and it means so much to see you some times to. I understand how you didnt feel comfortable with this whole sedar thing. im trying to write down improvement for the future in case there is that small chance you should come again what would make you feel more comfortable. if you weren't so intrested in the actual seder I wish you would come shmooze with me in the kitchen and help me qith abc. it was very hard this year being at the end of pregnancy. let him see you as a person. and if he was truly miserable you parent cant force him to come in the future. And if he feels understood he will less likely put on a show but also communicate better and act more honest . In the end he might even sometimes join in the seder not as forcedresentment but because he it means alot to make your parent happy

amother

Cyclamen

Thu, Apr 21 2022, 10:23 am

Just want to say that your brother obviously has a totally different perspective than you. To him, he really stretched himself to show up and sit through the Seder to make your parents happy. He thinks he is amazing for doing that, which was very difficult for him. And maybe he actually is amazing for doing that.
As much as your feelings are valid, and you sound like a really wonderful daughter and sister, please recognize that your bro is in his own painful situation and may be doing the best he can at this point.
Don’t get upset with him. Be proud of him for doing this much.

thesoundofmusic

Sat, Apr 23 2022, 7:58 pm

OP here
thank you for all the loving responses.
I was sory to see those who responded with blaming me kind of response.
I just want to make it clear to burgendy and aanyone else.
the reason my brother was not explicitly invited was because he becomes extremely upset when people invite him. he feels like its being pushy... go figure. so we just wait for him to "let us know". all of the other things that were said- are things that we have taken in account- if we chose to say or not to say- it was nothing that had to do with disfunction, it was wieghed and thought about, and sometimes das torah was consulted. having a sibling who is otd requires constant figuring things out, acceptance and finding the place of love in our hearts even though they are not the perfect yeshiva bachur/ sem girl that we would have loved to have had. we mourn that, and we love and we are chalenged. it is a nisayon that I dont wish upon anyone.
a few more important points: OBVIOUSLY things that went on in my parents home contributed to him being otd. no we are not a disfunctional home. BH I come from a very loving wonderful home, that is the percise reason why he comes and takes part of simchas and seders and other family gatherings- BH. YES - eh obvioulsy does have his own issues that need tharepy- everyone around him knows that, supports that, is willing to pay- but until he decides to do it - noone can make him- he is over thirty.
just like in every family, there were "mishagases" that affected him. but ultimatly it was his bechira to live the way he does. my parents are tzadikim who love him and accept him, respect him and continue to give to him selflessly.
I am not a victim of his behaviour- I am simply hurt by his behaviour. everyone else was helping, cleaning, having a grand time of it- and he was not- as I wrote before.
I also am having a hard time with this new trend of "blaming the OP"- I saw it with the mil- who writes about her daughter in law who is addicted to the phone, and those who complained that the newly weds arent helping.... and now here. there are unhealthy behaviours that exsist in our midst and its ok- to call them out. we all have what to work on and we must be honost with ourselves and our families when we see something that is not ok.
I aso do respect that he comes and sits through what is hard for him. kol hakavod. but it is expected of a grownup not to hurt people along the way even when things get challenging. we all have our nisyonot and they cannot be used as an excuse for being not menchy.
I wish everyone a healthy happy shavuah tov, and thanks again for the kind responses.

WhatFor

Sat, Apr 23 2022, 10:34 pm

amother [ Zinnia ] wrote:

I think its very clear from his behavior that he was unhappy being at the seder and went because of your parents. That is what he even said.

Someone saying they only came for the parents makes sense if you think about it as a defensive way to justify why they were there even though they weren't invited.

Personally, if a family member was hosting the Seder and they never invited me, I would be hurt. I probably wouldn't even go because I can't imagine enjoying myself somewhere where everyone was invited but me. OP has a rationale for why she didn't invite him, but if we're trying to understand his behavior, would he agree with the rationale or did he show up to the seder with all this baggage of feeling unwanted and rejected? So to me, saying "I only came because parents wanted me here" is kind of a way of saying "I'm not completely unwanted and I didn't come here to impose myself on you or because I'm desperate for your company. I did it for our parents."

When I first read the OP I thought OP was describing someone depressed. But if he showed up upset and feeling rejected and uninvited, he might have been sulking. OP has no idea what's going through his head and is wondering why he's sitting at the table looking sour. Based on what she wrote, she interprets it as being disrespectful to her and the seder. Perhaps at some point her disapproval of his behavior reflected in her face and then he interpreted her disapproval as more "evidence" that she doesn't want him there and went on to make disrespectful comments about how he's going to need to recuperate from being there.

Meanwhile OP is hosting him and even goes so far as to pack him a meal for the next night which is above and beyond what most people would do even for typical guests. So they both feel hurt and like they're extenuating themselves but there's a whole lot of background here.

Fwiw, I don't believe in coddling someone just because they chose to not be religious. One thing has nothing to do with the other. If someone has a mental health issue or is dealing with trauma they might need more sensitivity but imo that's irrespective of whether or not they're no longer frum. But I don't think any of this is simply about no longer being frum. There's a big picture here and a lot of history that's complicating things.

amother

Peachpuff

Sat, Apr 23 2022, 10:42 pm

OP,

I'm not sure if you changed details for privacy, but I know of someone who sounds just like your brother. He's just over 40 and is actually the oldest in his family. If that rings bells for you, maybe this message will hit home.

This person I know is in a lot of pain over various things that happened to him as a child, teen and young adult. He developed a severe lack of self confidence and also harbors a lot of pain regarding the relationship between him and his parents, especially his father.

He's an amazing, brilliant person who has so much to offer, but because he doesn't believe in himself, he got stuck, never believing he had what to offer someone else in marriage. He also almost got married once and then was dumped by the girl, and he'd deeply invested in the relationship. It caused him tremendous agony.

I don't know if this is your brother or not, but he could have a similar story.

Look at like this: Your brother is in pain. He has open wounds in his heart. And though he could perhaps be more mentchlich, when someone is suffering, everything takes incredible effort.

It's very easy for a person happily married in a healthy home to point out bad behavior, but a suffering person can't necessarily see how much their behavior hurts others. They only know that they are hurting.

Be gentle with him.

If you brother is anything like this person I know, he needs a lot of love and no judgement.

amother

Garnet

Sun, Apr 24 2022, 6:36 am

OP, you've gone above and beyond, but remember to take care of yourself.
If you worked super hard to put together a family seder and been scowled at all evening, you can do your best to take the high road and behave nicely, but you don't have to offer your leftovers. If you give too much, keep expecting him to be inspired and realize that he needs to shape up and be nice, and then he doesn't, that can burn you out.

You know that he behaves in a rude way, for whatever reason, it's counterproductive being super nice in the hopes that he'll change. Given his behavior, which sounds like it's pretty consistent, you can ask yourself - how much can I give, and how much energy can I put in, so that what I do will be with grace and honesty, and without hard feelings and resentment. If you leave seder feeling slapped in the face (which is totally understandable in the situation you described), think about how you can change your behavior so you won't be as affected by his response.

I have a sister who's grouchy and doesn't help. She's frequently super late, or doesn't show up at all, she huffs off from the table in the middle of meals, she says purposefully annoying things, gets into arguments doesn't pick up on how what she's saying might hurt someone, and she'll help a bit with the clearing, but will be the first to plop down on the couch while everyone else is still putting things away and washing dishes. Although it's really annoying, I focus on me not being able to change her behavior. When she's in my house, I tell her when to come, ask her to be on time, and ask for her help. Most people won't say no to a direct and specific request. I lower my expectations, and although it's really tempting, I'm trying to kick the mindset that if I'm nice enough, she'll be nice back. I end up being just super resentful when I give and give and she just takes and takes with a sour face and complaints. I give what I can, I don't go out of my way and I'm not holding my breath waiting for her to change. And what I do give/do it's with a positive attitude, because it reflects who I want to be - kind and welcoming - no matter how the other side responds.