Some reasons why I'm not sending to public school

nylon

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:10 pm

Conservative Judaism began in the 1880s and was already growing well in the prewar period. The Russian and Polish Jews found Reform Judaism too alien, and the German Reform Jews looked down on them. Conservative Judaism, which had a more familiar service, became the preferred choice for those Jews who wanted a more liberal and modern synagogue especially as they left the tenement neighborhoods. (In fact the Young Israel movement was founded to attract this new generation, by giving them English sermons and a more up to date feeling without compromising on halakha)

It definitely underwent huge growth after the war as Jews moved to the suburbs and founded new synagogues, but the shift had begun in the cities.

amother

Lightpink

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:20 pm

nylon wrote:

Sure. But Conservative Judaism wasn't really a big option around the turn of the century yet.

RE: Young Israel, as I recall from reading Lieutenant Birnbaum, Young Israel really got going in the 1920s-early 30s. It also was a way for younger religious Jews to feel more included in shul services as the more religious ones were run as a tight ship by the older members and young boys/men were not allowed much say or participation--started to attract a younger crowd who were otherwise feeling like an unnecessary appendage in the shuls of their fathers. The English drashos were definitely a way to attract that younger (dare I say it, public school educated yet still religious) crowd.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:23 pm

nylon wrote:

With regards to older immigrants, it wasn't simply a question of being orthoprax, or of Bolsheviks. There was enormous social pressure to assimilate and be modern and 'American'. To work on Shabbat. To many in the new generation, Orthodoxy was a thing of the old country and the shtetl. Immigrants had often left their family and social networks and were recreating them here. I saw how this worked with my own grandparents who were the first in their families to grow up in America. .

It wasn't just fitting in. It was being able to feed and provide for your family. Shabbos was an incredible nisayon.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:24 pm

amother [ Lightcyan ] wrote:

I'm glad you know now. Do some research and you'll see. It's not popular to talk about the immigrants to America from frum homes in Europe who didn't raise their children to be shomer shabbos. Times were hard we can't judge but your great-grandparents must have been very special people or they had a zchus from their own ancestors that their offspring should remain frum. The same goes for Holocaust survivors. It's also not discussed in polite company but the fact is many left everything behind and assimilated into American society without looking back.
Any of us who had frum grandparents and great-grandparents, whether they remained frum through early 20th century Depression area America or were Holocaust survivors who chose not to lose faith, can be very proud of who they were. It makes it even more important for us to sacrifice to raise our own kids the best way we can. Another reason to make whatever sacrifices we have to to give our kids the best Jewish education we can get for them.

Rabbi Avigdor Miller would say that had just one of his children stayed shomer Shabbos he would have felt that that was a matana. More, he couldn't count on.
He saw it.

amother

Puce

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:25 pm

amother [ Lightpink ] wrote:

Sure. But Conservative Judaism wasn't really a big option around the turn of the century yet.
As I recall from reading Lieutenant Birnbaum, Young Israel really got going in the 1920s-early 30s. It also was a way for younger religious Jews to feel more included in shul services as the more religious ones were run as a tight ship by the older members and young boys/men were not allowed much say or participation--started to attract a younger crowd who were otherwise feeling like an unnecessary appendage in the shuls of their fathers. The English drashos were definitely a way to attract that younger (dare I say it, public school educated) crowd.

Young Israel is not related to the Conservative movement.

To put it in perspective, Rabbi Avigdor Miller tzl was the Rabbi of the Young Israel of Rugby.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:26 pm

amother [ Hydrangea ] wrote:

You misunderstood my post.

The Jews who came to the USA at that time were not particularly interested in being frum. To the extent they still were observant it was because they were used to doing things in a certain way and not because they had a strong belief system. They did no more than was necessary. They might have attended Orthodox synagogues but that was out of habit and not because of any strong religious belief.

They had no desire to be more frum and at best were conservative or traditional in their belief. Having frum children was not particularly important to them and so it really was chicken and egg. They wanted their children to assimilate and wouldn’t have sent to a Yeshivah even if it had been available. It wasn’t public school that was the cause of the assimilation. They were frum in Europe because there was no choice except for very affluent Jews in cosmopolitan cities but it would have taken a truly extraordinary person to renounce Judaism in the shtetl versus the USA where there was no particular reason to remain frum and attractive alternatives existed including Reform and Conservative for those who wanted to retain some semblance of religion.

I'll have to go back and see your posts. The people I know came because of crushing poverty and pogroms.

ETA: I see amother lightpink said it well. Oh, and another book is Henye Meyer's This is America.

amother

Lightcyan

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:31 pm

amother [ Lightpink ] wrote:

Oy vey.
I hope I'm misunderstanding you,
Young Israel is NOT conservative.

amother

Lightpink

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:37 pm

amother [ Lightcyan ] wrote:

Oy vey.
I hope I'm misunderstanding you,
Young Israel is NOT conservative.

Sorry. No. I didn't mean that at all. Of course it's an Orthodox movement. I was responding to two different points in the previous post. Should have made it more clear.
The main thing I remember from Lieutenant Birnbaum's fond reminiscences about Young Israel was attending Pirchei group there. Pirchei was/is a youth group attached to Agudath Israel. No way would it be a part of a non Orthodox shul, lol.

amother

Lightpink

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:39 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Public school enrollment is sharply down over the last few years. 1.6 million kids have been pulled from public school recently.

Just read a NYT article about that yesterday. That's due to covid and extended virtual school. Lots of people sent their kids to private schools that stayed open and don't want to yank their kids back and forth. Some started homeschooling and just like it for various reasons. These kids haven't left because of curriculum concerns, other than maybe a few-- if that was the case, the NYT would gladly highlight that. They love pointing out "unenlightened" parents protesting CRT and such.

naturalmom5

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:44 pm

GLUE wrote:

In another thread Amother said that maybe in Lakewood to keep the tuition down, just send to public school for the younger grades. My first reaction was What were you thinking then I remember what my father always says "If you have to ask what someone is thinking you are giving them to much credit that they were thinking".

Ether you come from a community that is is normal, if that is the case, I glad it works for you and I wish you lots of Yiddish nachas from your kids. Or you were not thinking.

Lets forget about the fact that it is now a law to teach kindergarten kids about Gender Identity in NJ, and the classes would be mixed gender. Her is some of the reasons that I can think of just now.

I want my son to start the day off davening,I want my son to go to a school that the teachers want the boys to were tzitzes.
They can learn Hebrew in public school, but only as a langue not as a holy tongue.
I want him to learn Chumash in the morning when he is rested a refreshed not after 6 hours of school.
I want him to be in a place that emphasizes on Middous. Were the hallways has pictures of Gedolem. Were the bulletin boards display are about Yom Tov.
I want him to come home telling me about the Parsha, some thing that can not be taught in Public school. Right now he is telling me all about Shavous, I don't want him telling me about Shavous the same way he would talk about Halloween or Valentines day.

In public School would he learn that A is for Aficomen and B for Bisomin, would he make a Vase for Shobbos flowers for V(I mean would he come home to say it's for Shobbos flowers not just a vase)
Right now they are growing butterflies in school and learning about the Great Butterfly migration. It takes about 5 generation's to make the round trip from Mexico to Canada and back. Would his teacher in public school talk about how Hashem tells the butterflies born in the spring to fly north and the ones born in the fall to fly south?

Who is going to remind him to wash before lunch and Bench after lunch?

That's all that I can think of right now, these are some of the reasons why sending our pure children to public school is a bad idea.

This is a really beautiful heartwarming post
However, it isnt grounded in reality

If you are born jnto a wealthy connected yichusdik family maybe its true

I havent met one single child from a very solid frum ehrliche family that was forced to go to PS for different reasons (ie : money, special needs) that doesnt have a positive feelings for judaism and the community

Over 90% of children that were rejected or put thru gehennom to get into a school ( even one as lovely as the one described in this post), are bitter and angry at yiddishkeit

Its not the PS
Its the home and community that matters

amother

Lightpink

Mon, May 23 2022, 8:49 pm

nylon wrote:

To clarify I know that YI is not conservative, I was saying that it was created because of some of the same social pressures that pulled people away from Orthodoxy. It sought to satisfy those pressures--cater to the new generation who thought of themselves as modern and American, but without compromising on halakha.

Yes. I agree.
Believe it or not, that's how/why Agudath Israel of America was started, too. All young men who started the American chapter, in the 1920s, I think. If you've seen photos, it's a small group of young modern looking men (for the time that is) wearing stylish clothing and clean-shaven.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, May 23 2022, 9:04 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I agree, I know many people dati who had to send to PS and kids stayed religious. What people learn at home and environment counts a lot. Going to shul, making friends there, father/son learning programs, that counts way more than we think. Many went to yeshivot and seminary after PS.

amother

Lightpink

Mon, May 23 2022, 9:27 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Hehe I would not count on an nyt article to account for the presumably many varied reasons at least 1.6 million kids have been recently pulled from public schools. Of course they’re blaming Covid. All Covid did was show parents the public schools’ true colors.
Would not count on nyt for much of anything.

Look up when these 1.6 million students were withdrawn. It wasn't in last few months. It was well over a year ago at the height of the lockdowns/virtual schooling. There actually were far more, but as schools reopened, they returned.
I have friends who work in public school. A lot of positions were cut a year ago as so many kids had withdrawn that year (budgets are made at the end of the year for the upcoming year, based on projected enrollment). As parents started registering their kids again last summer, most (but not all) of those positions were reinstated. This is not based on a NYT article but my IRL friends and their job security. Believe me, they follow the trends, lol.