Mishpacha Double Take

amother

Tealblue

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 9:27 pm

amother [ Hunter ] wrote:

you seem to be extremely hung up on the fact that they're being supported by her parents. you've mentioned it in every one of your posts, when in the article it didn't seem to be a major part of the story at all. in fact the parents seemed to be happy to give them money for whatever they needed to get help etc, so I dont think they would make such a big deal about suppporting the couple financially till they figure things out.

I don’t think so. Parents are supporting SIL while he learns in kollel, that is their arrangement. I don’t know if they would agree to support him sitting on his tush.

amother

Ebony

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:53 pm

amother [ Aconite ] wrote:

If it’s depression, which it might well be because those are some symptoms, he would not just show up at his job to get a paycheck. As the wives on this site whose husbands are depressed. They sit home and don’t work.

If he's totally normal when they have other sorts of conversations and are going about their daily life (as the KT mentioned a few times in the story) and only "depressed" when it comes to religion/Yiddishkeit, then no, it's not clinical depression. If he truly was depressed, it would spill over into the other parts of his life and he wouldn't be reverting back to his regular self, he'd be non functioning all around.

amother

RosePink

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 3:41 am

I thought all sides handled it relatively well

The main issue is when there is chv an apparent issue at the beginning marriage, how much should the parents be involved?

I would say for healthy parents it's good to involve them after a time if their help or support is needed and depending on the situation but if things are getting better without their help and the child doesn't feel that they want them involved then it's not necessary to involve them.

The main issue here was that the mother could see something was wrong and was very worried. How do we balance the need for a child's privacy with her mother's worry?

I don't think the kalla teacher has a right to disclose anything without permission but she should talk to the kalla and let her know her mother is worried and to reassure her that things are ok or let her know they are not, but don't just leave her in the dark when it's obvious things are not ok, I think that is really hurtful.

And if privacy is absolutely paramount then the couple should consider moving away for a while to be out of the mother's reach and view, to be able to work out their issues in privacy and the mother will hopefully be able to let go a little as well

And no kalla don't dump the news of your divorce on your mother one day without any fine warning and expect support that would be wrong. When you see things are getting to a point of no return you need to give some warning or say something.

amother

Wandflower

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 6:43 am

Do you have any idea of the horrible effects it would have on this poor girl to advise her to move away and isolate her further with her chosson who to her surprise has no interest in yiddishkeit and says he has been faking it along? This is not a case of a newlywed couple needing to bond.
She herself is already in a situation that puts her at risk for clinical depression.
When did it become the norm for the “victim” to prioritize the one at fault to her own detriment?
Really backwards and scary.
An all too common mistake to apply normal advice to an abnormal situation in which it will not work at best and backfire at worst.
Also bc is not infallible. And if someone does choose to divorce if they have children they must stay and live where they are. So it’s terrible advice to advise someone with a truly troubled at risk marriage to move away from her family and friends to move out of state or country.

amother

RosePink

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 6:47 am

amother [ Wandflower ] wrote:

It would be to give her more privacy as it seems her mother is breathing over her neck noting every conversation with her kalla teacher and yes maybe they do need to get away spend Shabbos on their own every week and decide what they need to do

Just an idea

amother

Ebony

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:07 am

amother [ RosePink ] wrote:

According to the story they didn't come for shabbos that often, and the mother wasn't pressuring them to come at all or asking why they don't come more often. Sounded like she gave them a lot of space, actually. And parental pressure wasn't one of the things she was complaining abt to the KT. All of her issues were about her husband and his lashing out about religion.

amother

Pistachio

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 9:32 am

amother [ Currant ] wrote:

This. The mom kept asking daughter about issues.
Daughter isn’t an idiot.
She clearly didn’t want to share.
But mom went behind her back to the KT.

We didn’t hear the daughters perspective at all.
Their relationship may not be as rosy as mom likes to put it down.

The article said that shame was an important factor why the daughter did not want to tell her mother what was going on. She wanted to spare her parents the disappointment that the glicksshiddach was not really a glicksshiddach.

That was not a good reason not to share.

First, because the mother had seen anyway that something was wrong, and she was even more worried when she did not know what it was about, when she did not know how to help her daughter, then if the daughter had told her. Because in the end, the situation was not that bad. Once transparency would have been established, they could have solved the problem: either the daughter wants to stay married because she likes him, and is ready to forgo her dream of a kollel or even frum lifestyle. Or she is not ready to overlook the deception and wants a divorce. That's quite straightforward.

Second, because those kinds of secrets are unhealthy, for everyone involved: for the daughter, for her husband, plus everybody around is suffering, plus thousands of dollars have to be invested in therapy, just to keep up an unhealthy situation.

Therefore, it was the KT's role to reassure the young woman that she was not at fault, and that transparency was the way to go in this situation.

The KT should not have broken the young wife's confidentiality, but she should have encouraged her to talk openly to her parents.

Was this KT did betrayed a complete lack of professional integrity, common sense and menshlichkeit.

amother

Freesia

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 10:29 am

This article reinforced several of my pet peeves that relate to our education system:

1) Young men and women are not machines built on an assembly line. Every single one of them is unique and sees the world, their values, and their relationship with Hashem in their own way. I have a feeling there are many, many young men just like the boy in this story who are lost because they didn't fit onto the assembly line, and yet calling attention to that fact would immediately spell failure in their minds and lives. They feel pressured into putting up the facade of everything being fine because the cost of opening up is too great. The first time many of them get a taste of a no-pressure zone is upon getting married and not being under the harsh gaze of their rabbeim. We need to do a better job of providing safe, zero-judgement opportunities for young adults to open up to their mentors / rabbeim, eliminate the pressures and structure of the cookie-cutter yeshiva system, and get rid of the stigmas around individualized paths to connecting with Yiddishkeit and Hashem.

2) The pressure for young adults to get married at a universally-acceptable age or stage, regardless of their individual needs, needs to be eliminated. So many young adults feel they must get married at a certain point even if they don't feel ready, because admitting they aren't ready, or aren't interested yet, is a sign of a "problem", when in reality it's a sign of maturity.

3) Though there's been much progress made over the years in the realm of marriage prep and counseling, we are still far from where we need to be in terms of getting our kids ready to live on their own with a spouse. Healthy communication, shared responsibilities, realistic expectations, even the idea of caring and loving someone else... these are often foreign concepts to our children who are thrust into this world whether they're ready or not. These things require years of practice, not to mention a healthy attitude. If we don't nurture our children to learn these things, or at least be familiar with them, then we can hardly be surprised when they struggle.

Mama Bear

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 10:30 am

I'm glad someone pointed me to this topic. I only read the first page bc I really dont have time now for all six. My 2 cents here is this:

Double Take is an exaggerated version of real conflicts, created to spark debate.
The way this story was portrayed in mishpacha is EXTREMELY unrealistic. I don't like when they mash together 5 stories into one. Bc a situation exactly like the way it was written, cannot possibly happen; there are multiple conflicts in the story.

1) If the newlywed (forgot the name) was REALLY desperate to keep the info from her mother, she needed to cover it up better. Not calling, not visiting, and then acting morose, raises extreme red flags to any normal parent. At least pretend that everything is fine!

2) The mother says, that her daughter was barely talking to the new husband. Yet, later the kallah teacher states that everything was fine between them except Yiddishkeit. So which one is it? If the only issue here is Yiddishkeit, the newlywed daughter at least could've made a fake effort to speak friendly and pleasantly to her husband so not to raise any suspicion.

3) Why was the kallah teacher so cagey? If the daughter so desperately wanted to hide from her mother that something was up, they couldve collaborated on a fake answer such as, "Everything is perfectly fine! Dont worry"

4) WHY WAS SHE CRYING WHEN EXITING THE KALLAH TEACHER'S HOUSE, WITH HER ARM AROUND HER? when there are cars and people outside who can possibly see? This is another point that makes no sense. It's purposely put in there for the sensation of this 'story'. Once you act in a suspicious manner like this, you can't then become cagey and evasive.

5) Why didn't the mother call her own daughter, "Shaifeleh, I clearly saw you coming out of the kallah teacher's house, crying, please please tell me what is wrong, I'm here to help you"! Why did she go to the kallah teacher? Like I said, so much about this story is unrealistic and contradicts other parts of the story.

6) I'm sorry, but a young newlywed man who is not interested in yiddishkeit and moping around the house all day is not a 'minor nothing' thing that will boil over in a few weeks. Cmon! This man has serious issues and needs emergency help. This couple needs therapy. This isnt one of those minor issues that a kallah teacher can smooth over. Heavy hitters are needed her. Maybe the mother doesnt need to be involved yet, bc she'll immediately pull her daughter home and they still want to try to make thing work, but .... be honest with yourself, this is not going to end well. A yeshiva bochur who just got married and is uninterested in yiddishkeit, this isnt a future. Unless he is struggling with depression and can get help and come out of it. Is this the kind of life this young woman wants for the rest of her life? THis is something that needs a lot of intervention.

7) we don't truly know what kind of relationship this mother had with the daughter. she seems a little hover-y and helicopter-y. we hear the point of view of the kallah teacher - but not of the daughter.

The bottom line is, the story could have worked if it wouldnt be a mishmash of several possible stories, bc the end result was a story that was too unrealiastic and contradictory. That's my opinion. No one needs to get hysterical over this story, bc it's fake, fabricated, and something that would not happen.

Chickensoupprof

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 1:15 pm

Of course Double Take is as Mamabear said a exagrated version of relality I think it is best to narrow it down to the fact: should a third person tell something about the adult child to the parent? Even when the parent is worried?

The answer to that in my opinion is NO NEVER. My mom once asked our GP if he couldn't share some information about me something I was struggling with at that moment. I was 16 at that time and I was per Dutch law entitled to my own medical privacy so GP couldn't tell anything and my mom was upset that a doctor is not even allowed to say I was doing OK or not. An adult child needs their privacy and indeed, I made a mistake as well that I overshared to my parents about DH and I should never ever do that again because especially mothers are notorious for going back to memory lane even decades earlier. Also parents are getting way too emotional about things. My DH has a rare form of insomnia circadian rhythm disorder... I share it here under my SN because he is open about it himself. DH sleeps 2 to 3 hours a night despite visiting neurologists, psychiatrists and a specialized sleep clinic his sleeping did not improve (so don't pm me with 'have you tried this'). Anyhoo... My mom knowing this, is worried about my health because I'm in her eyes super vulnerable, and I have a husband whose brother just died of suicide, who has a circadian rhythm disorder and had a traumatic youth, and parents with problems who has also X Y Z ... Sometimes I just wished I never told her anything. Yet... I have to tell her when DH can't show up because he barley slept but then she will get worried and yeah I'm 28... OTOH, my inlaws never worry about me or my husband they only worry if DH still wears a hat and I have thick stockings yes or no.

So, telling things about parents so early is never ok. I think the KT is right.

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 2:33 pm

amother [ Freesia ] wrote:

IMHO the infantilization is the big issue. Kids need to grow up with age appropriate responsibilities, especially boys!
To treat kids with silken gloves and zero responsibility is a great way to foster SB issues once they got married.