 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note
|
amother
OP
|
 Sat, Aug 06 2022, 9:17 pm
Can we please talk about the events that lead up to the Churban? I know there are books. But I’d like to hear your take.
Let’s begin.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 0
|
b.chadash
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 1:03 am
Was just listening to a shiur on Kamtza and Bar Kamtza and the speaker brought out interesting points.
He asked:
1. Why was Kamtza being blamed? He wasn't even at the party.
2. Why do we blame Bar Kamtza? The poor guy came to a party he was invited to and then humiliated in front of everyone. We can kind of understand why he wanted to take revenge.
3. The gemara says it was baseless hatred that destroyed the BH. But is there ever such a thing as Baseless hatred? We usually hate people for a reason.
Bar kamtza was the host's friend. Why wasn't he there at the party? He didn’t receive an invitation? Why does he need an invitation to his best friend's party? Why stand on ceremony? He is being blamed because he was stubborn amd stood on his high horse, waiting for an invitation. Perhaps had he been there, the host wouldn't have had to look for him and find Bar kamtza instead.
Bar Kamtza was no angel to feel sorry for. When he received the invitation to his enemy's party, he decides to go. Why?
One might assume that he took the invitation as a sign that the host wanted to make peace. So he decided to accept the peace offering and attend the party.
If that were the case, he should have immedieatly upon arrival approached the host to thank him for inviting him and showing him that he was ready the let bygones be bygones. Instead he took a seat and started eating.
The host sees his enemy sitting there and sees red. He tells him to get out. Bar kamtza now realizes that it was a mistake.
So, now he had 2 choices.
A. He could have left quietly.
B. He could have said "I'm sorry about all the hard feelings. I come in peace. " why? Because his original intention in coming was to make peace. So he was ready to move on, so just say im sorry!
But he only came because he thought the host was ready to make up. He took the invitation as a sign of admission from his enemy that he was in the wrong. He was happy that the host was the first to give in, and he was now ready to move on. But when he realized it was a mistake, he wasn't ready to be the first to say I'm sorry. He was too stubborn.
Instead he chose option c which was to offer to pay for the meal.
Had he been willing to humble himself and apologize, it's likely that the host would have been mollified. But instead he offered to pay for the whole party, just so not to have to say I'm sorry.
The commentators say that these two men were father and son. They were both stubborn people, but the son learned this from watching the father. The father was a man who stood on ceremony and always had to have his way. The son learned from that.
That's why the month is called Av, which stands for av and beno. Because of a father and his son the BH was destroyed.
Now, if Bar kamtza was angry at the host, why not take revenge on the host? Go and cut the power line to the party and ruin it. Or burn his garbage cans. Why did he feel the need to take the revenge on the whole nation?
Sometimes when a person is angry, he actually let's out his anger on someone else. A man gets harassed at work by his boss and that puts him in a bad mood. He comes home and yells at his wife. The wife in turn yells at the kid. This is baseless hatred. We take hatred that may be justified against one person and direct it against another.
Another pshat is that we sometimes get angry way out of proportion to the crime. Someone upsets us which should have caused us to get angry 10 percent, and instead we blow up at 80 percent. The extra 70 percent is sinas Chinam.
This is what Bar kamtza did by traveling to tje ceaser to report on all the Jews.
Eta: just want to add that the above is a combination of two shiurim I watched in Torahanytime.
R' Eliyahu Malsumov and R Shraga Kallus
Last edited by b.chadash on Sun, Aug 07 2022, 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
21
|
Brownies
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 6:14 am
| b.chadash wrote: | Was just listening to a shiur on Kamtza and Bar Kamtza and the speaker brought out interesting points.
He asked:
1. Why was Kamtza being blamed? He wasn't even at the party.
2. Why do we blame Bar Kamtza? The poor guy came to a party he was invited to and then humiliated in front of everyone. We can kind of understand why he wanted to take revenge.
3. The gemara says it was baseless hatred that destroyed the BH. But is there ever such a thing as Baseless hatred? We usually hate people for a reason.
Bar kamtza was the host's friend. Why wasn't he there at the party? He didn’t receive an invitation? Why does he need an invitation to his best friend's party? Why stand on ceremony? He is being blamed because he was stubborn amd stood on his high horse, waiting for an invitation. Perhaps had he been there, the host wouldn't have had to look for him and find Bar kamtza instead.
Bar Kamtza was no angel to feel sorry for. When he received the invitation to his enemy's party, he decides to go. Why?
One might assume that he took the invitation as a sign that the host wanted to make peace. So he decided to accept the peace offering and attend the party.
If that were the case, he should have immedieatly upon arrival approached the host to thank him for inviting him and showing him that he was ready the let bygones be bygones. Instead he took a seat and started eating.
The host sees his enemy sitting there and sees red. He tells him to get out. Bar kamtza now realizes that it was a mistake.
So, now he had 2 choices.
A. He could have left quietly.
B. He could have said "I'm sorry about all the hard feelings. I come in peace. " why? Because his original intention in coming was to make peace. So he was ready to move on, so just say im sorry!
But he only came because he thought the host was ready to make up. He took the invitation as a sign of admission from his enemy that he was in the wrong. He was happy that the host was the first to give in, and he was now ready to move on. But when he realized it was a mistake, he wasn't ready to be the first to say I'm sorry. He was too stubborn.
Instead he chose option c which was to offer to pay for the meal.
Had he been willing to humble himself and apologize, it's likely that the host would have been mollified. But instead he offered to pay for the whole party, just so not to have to say I'm sorry.
The commentators say that these two men were father and son. They were both stubborn people, but the son learned this from watching the father. The father was a man who stood on ceremony and always had to have his way. The son learned from that.
That's why the month is called Av, which stands for av and beno. Because of a father and his son the BH was destroyed.
Now, if Bar kamtza was angry at the host, why not take revenge on the host? Go and cut the power line to the party and ruin it. Or burn his garbage cans. Why did he feel the need to take the revenge on the whole nation?
Sometimes when a person is angry, he actually let's out his anger on someone else. A man gets harassed at work by his boss and that puts him in a bad mood. He comes home and yells at his wife. The wife in turn yells at the kid. This is baseless hatred. We take hatred that may be justified against one person and direct it against another.
Another pshat is that we sometimes get angry way out of proportion to the crime. Someone upsets us which should have caused us to get angry 10 percent, and instead we blow up at 80 percent. The extra 70 percent is sinas Chinam.
This is what Bar kamtza did by traveling to tje ceaser to report on all the Jews. |
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out...very interesting!
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
|
amother
Blush
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 9:06 am
| b.chadash wrote: | Was just listening to a shiur on Kamtza and Bar Kamtza and the speaker brought out interesting points.
He asked:
1. Why was Kamtza being blamed? He wasn't even at the party.
2. Why do we blame Bar Kamtza? The poor guy came to a party he was invited to and then humiliated in front of everyone. We can kind of understand why he wanted to take revenge.
3. The gemara says it was baseless hatred that destroyed the BH. But is there ever such a thing as Baseless hatred? We usually hate people for a reason.
Bar kamtza was the host's friend. Why wasn't he there at the party? He didn’t receive an invitation? Why does he need an invitation to his best friend's party? Why stand on ceremony? He is being blamed because he was stubborn amd stood on his high horse, waiting for an invitation. Perhaps had he been there, the host wouldn't have had to look for him and find Bar kamtza instead.
Bar Kamtza was no angel to feel sorry for. When he received the invitation to his enemy's party, he decides to go. Why?
One might assume that he took the invitation as a sign that the host wanted to make peace. So he decided to accept the peace offering and attend the party.
If that were the case, he should have immedieatly upon arrival approached the host to thank him for inviting him and showing him that he was ready the let bygones be bygones. Instead he took a seat and started eating.
The host sees his enemy sitting there and sees red. He tells him to get out. Bar kamtza now realizes that it was a mistake.
So, now he had 2 choices.
A. He could have left quietly.
B. He could have said "I'm sorry about all the hard feelings. I come in peace. " why? Because his original intention in coming was to make peace. So he was ready to move on, so just say im sorry!
But he only came because he thought the host was ready to make up. He took the invitation as a sign of admission from his enemy that he was in the wrong. He was happy that the host was the first to give in, and he was now ready to move on. But when he realized it was a mistake, he wasn't ready to be the first to say I'm sorry. He was too stubborn.
Instead he chose option c which was to offer to pay for the meal.
Had he been willing to humble himself and apologize, it's likely that the host would have been mollified. But instead he offered to pay for the whole party, just so not to have to say I'm sorry.
The commentators say that these two men were father and son. They were both stubborn people, but the son learned this from watching the father. The father was a man who stood on ceremony and always had to have his way. The son learned from that.
That's why the month is called Av, which stands for av and beno. Because of a father and his son the BH was destroyed.
Now, if Bar kamtza was angry at the host, why not take revenge on the host? Go and cut the power line to the party and ruin it. Or burn his garbage cans. Why did he feel the need to take the revenge on the whole nation?
Sometimes when a person is angry, he actually let's out his anger on someone else. A man gets harassed at work by his boss and that puts him in a bad mood. He comes home and yells at his wife. The wife in turn yells at the kid. This is baseless hatred. We take hatred that may be justified against one person and direct it against another.
Another pshat is that we sometimes get angry way out of proportion to the crime. Someone upsets us which should have caused us to get angry 10 percent, and instead we blow up at 80 percent. The extra 70 percent is sinas Chinam.
This is what Bar kamtza did by traveling to tje ceaser to report on all the Jews. |
Appreciate!
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
|
amother
NeonPink
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 9:14 am
Very interesting. Thank you!
I heard this about sinaas chinam:
None of us feel that when we hate someone, it's baseless hatred, we always have a very good reason to hate them.
It can be compared to a son who came home from school with a broken finger. His teacher hit him and broke his finger. Parents press charges. The teacher feels indignant. "I didn't do it baselessly! He was disrupting the lesson! "
Obviously, we can all understand that the teacher has no excuse.
Same with hatred. In our minds, we have a reason for our feelings and we are justified. If we knew how terrible and destructive hating another yid is, we would see that it is a thousand times worse than breaking their finger. And it doesn't only destroy the target of our hatred. It's a wild fire that destroys everything.
I'm going to take this time to declare that I do not hate the parents of my child's bully. They are not safe people to expose my child to at this point, and I will protect my child. But they obviously have their own demons to deal with. There is also no need to discuss the issue with people who know both of us unless there is real, tangible help that they can give. My need to vent is not enough of a reason.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
11
|
|
amother
Iris
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:26 pm
So kamtza and Bar Kamtza is not simply a story of two men with some kind of personal vendetta. This is a story about the greater rifts in Klal Yisroel during that time.
According to Rabbi Avigdor Miller, Bar Kamtza was a tzeduki, which explains his behavior: kissing up to the Roman emperor, making a "mum that doesn't really count as a mum"...
The host was a Perushi and his distinguished guests included the Gedolim of the time. They had every reason to dislike, in the strongest possible way, Bar Kamtza and his ilk. And yet, the host is held accountable for embarrassing him in public.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
Not_in_my_town
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:44 pm
| amother [ Iris ] wrote: | So kamtza and Bar Kamtza is not simply a story of two men with some kind of personal vendetta. This is a story about the greater rifts in Klal Yisroel during that time.
According to Rabbi Avigdor Miller, Bar Kamtza was a tzeduki, which explains his behavior: kissing up to the Roman emperor, making a "mum that doesn't really count as a mum"...
The host was a Perushi and his distinguished guests included the Gedolim of the time. They had every reason to dislike, in the strongest possible way, Bar Kamtza and his ilk. And yet, the host is held accountable for embarrassing him in public. |
I think that brings up a very good point: If the Perushi host was held accountable for embarrassing someone who had turned his back on Yiddishkeit, what can it teach us about our own generation?
So often we frummies will look down on someone who isn't frum or as frum as ourselves and hold ourselves high above them... THAT is sinas chinam.
It is hatred based upon nothing, for even a Yid who isn't living according to Yiddishkeit has a pintele Yid, and at his very essence, wants to connect with Hashem. Should we take care to treat him as a Yid, worrying about his feelings, then we have done our job. We can never inspire someone through ill treatment, and even if we put on a good show, the feelings in our hearts are perceptible; no one should ever be made to feel "less than."
We still have much sinas chinam to root out.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
imorethanamother
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 1:46 pm
Watching videos that are a reenactment of the churban, even non Jews point out that our civil wars and infighting basically caused our downfall. We burned our own grain storage units, we murdered each other politically, simply to be in the right.
Had we been United against the real enemy, we might have won. But we starved ourselves and fought our own heroes until all that was left was a broken remnant of what we once were.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
3
|
|
amother
Seagreen
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 1:49 pm
| Not_in_my_town wrote: | I think that brings up a very good point: If the Perushi host was held accountable for embarrassing someone who had turned his back on Yiddishkeit, what can it teach us about our own generation?
So often we frummies will look down on someone who isn't frum or as frum as ourselves and hold ourselves high above them... THAT is sinas chinam.
It is hatred based upon nothing, for even a Yid who isn't living according to Yiddishkeit has a pintele Yid, and at his very essence, wants to connect with Hashem. Should we take care to treat him as a Yid, worrying about his feelings, then we have done our job. We can never inspire someone through ill treatment, and even if we put on a good show, the feelings in our hearts are perceptible; no one should ever be made to feel "less than."
We still have much sinas chinam to root out. |
you are projecting your own projections on all frum people.
on tisha bav to boot.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
2
|
Not_in_my_town
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 1:55 pm
| amother [ Seagreen ] wrote: | you are projecting your own projections on all frum people.
on tisha bav to boot. |
I didn't say all frum people. And yes, it is an issue that we have to work on.
I stand behind that. On Tisha B'Av to boot.
It's time to wake up.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
ShishKabob
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 1:58 pm
|
b. chadash, thank you so much for posting that.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
PinkFridge
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 2:29 pm
|
If you want to find out more about Bayis Rishon join OU Women Nach Yomi.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
b.chadash
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 5:11 pm
| amother [ NeonPink ] wrote: | Very interesting. Thank you!
I heard this about sinaas chinam:
None of us feel that when we hate someone, it's baseless hatred, we always have a very good reason to hate them.
It can be compared to a son who came home from school with a broken finger. His teacher hit him and broke his finger. Parents press charges. The teacher feels indignant. "I didn't do it baselessly! He was disrupting the lesson! "
Obviously, we can all understand that the teacher has no excuse.
Same with hatred. In our minds, we have a reason for our feelings and we are justified. If we knew how terrible and destructive hating another yid is, we would see that it is a thousand times worse than breaking their finger. And it doesn't only destroy the target of our hatred. It's a wild fire that destroys everything.
I'm going to take this time to declare that I do not hate the parents of my child's bully. They are not safe people to expose my child to at this point, and I will protect my child. But they obviously have their own demons to deal with. There is also no need to discuss the issue with people who know both of us unless there is real, tangible help that they can give. My need to vent is not enough of a reason. |
Another pshat for baseless hatred is that we never have any reason to be angry at anyone..if we would believe with perfect faith that Hashem runs the world, we would know that the person who hurt us is only a messenger. If we are upset, we should take it up with Hashem. So any hatred towards another jew is baseless .
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
b.chadash
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 5:16 pm
| Not_in_my_town wrote: | I think that brings up a very good point: If the Perushi host was held accountable for embarrassing someone who had turned his back on Yiddishkeit, what can it teach us about our own generation?
So often we frummies will look down on someone who isn't frum or as frum as ourselves and hold ourselves high above them... THAT is sinas chinam.
It is hatred based upon nothing, for even a Yid who isn't living according to Yiddishkeit has a pintele Yid, and at his very essence, wants to connect with Hashem. Should we take care to treat him as a Yid, worrying about his feelings, then we have done our job. We can never inspire someone through ill treatment, and even if we put on a good show, the feelings in our hearts are perceptible; no one should ever be made to feel "less than."
We still have much sinas chinam to root out. |
Yes, the speaker brought out this exact point. Bar kamtza was a despicable person, a lowlife and punk. He acted with incredible chutzpah. The proof is that he went to tell on the Jews to the Ceaser. Most people wouldn't have felt too bad about the way the host treated him. They felt he deserved it. And yet, the message of the story is that we need to be careful with another person's busha, no matter who the person is.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
4
|
|
amother
Tomato
|
Sun, Aug 07 2022, 5:31 pm
| imorethanamother wrote: | Watching videos that are a reenactment of the churban, even non Jews point out that our civil wars and infighting basically caused our downfall. We burned our own grain storage units, we murdered each other politically, simply to be in the right.
Had we been United against the real enemy, we might have won. But we starved ourselves and fought our own heroes until all that was left was a broken remnant of what we once were.
|
Thank you— this video while heartbreaking illustrates the tragedy. 😭
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
