Rabbi Birnbaum: Kibbud Horim brings the Geulah.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 5:06 pm

Excerpts from Yated Article: Pleading the 5th by
Rabbi Avrohom Birnbaum

One of the most difficult tasks is accepting rebuke from one's parents...almost every fiber in our body has the instinctive reaction to defend ourselves or even chas v'sholom lash out...how can we fix that and perhaps through that bring the Geulah a bit closer?

"Bonim gidalti versatile veheum poshu bi"
"I have raised and elevated children, and they have rebelled against me."

Gemora meseches kiddushin "when a person honors his father and mother, Hashem, the third partner says 'I consider it as if I live together with you.'

Gemara meseches kiddushin:

When a person causes PAIN and SUFFERING to his father, mother, or both, Hashem says:

"IT IS GOOD THAT I DO NOT LIVE AMONGST YOU "

From here we infer that when a son or daughter does perform the Mutzvah of kibbutz av v'eim properly, when they try really hard to honor their parents, and not cause any pain to their parents, they are actively bringing the Geulah closer.

steak4me

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:28 pm

Honoring an Abusive Parent?
by Rabbi Dov Linzer (Posted on February 1, 2018)

Must a Person Honor and Mourn for an Abusive Parent?
The short answer is “no.” One of the core principles in halakha when it comes to our obligation to others is hayekha kodmin, meaning our first ethical obligation is to ourselves. One must prioritize her own physical, emotional and psychological health, even if this means that kibbud av v’em must be set aside.
Let’s explore this in more detail.
Honoring one’s parents is a mitzvah that can demand a great deal from us. This is particularly true for the sandwich generation, adults who have responsibilities to their spouses and children, and yet who are called upon by this mitzvah to also attend to the needs of their parents. This mitzvah also demands that we relate to our parents with deference and respect, which, depending on the relationship, is not always easy.
If honoring parents came easily, there would be no need to be told to do it. The Rabbis knew how difficult this could be, and prodded us in its proper performance, reminding us that honoring one’s parents is tantamount to honoring God.
At the same time, there are things that we are not required to do. The obligation of kibbud av v’em focuses on how we act, not on how we feel. Context matters as well. If one serves her mother food, but does so in a manner of contempt, this is a violation of the mitzvah of kibbud av v’em. But while one has to show respect, one is not required to actually feel this way. Relationships are complicated, and the Torah does not make unreasonable demands on us.
This is not always the message that we get when it comes to this mitzvah. Many of us have heard the Talmudic stories of the non-Jew who chose to forgo a highly profitable sale so as not to wake his sleeping father, or of the rabbi who made himself a footstool so his mother could get into her bed. These stories have done much to contribute to the erroneous belief that one must honor her parents even at the cost of great psychological and emotional harm.
There is a difference between stories and halakhah. These stories are presented in the Talmud with the introduction ad heikhan kibbud av v’em, “how far does honoring one’s parents go?” It is a question of an ideal, not of a halakhic requirement. And yet some of these stories are codified by Rambam and Shulkhan Arukh, a process that Dr. Gerald Blidstein, in his book on this mitzvah, refers to as the “codifying of the heroic”. But most of us are not heroes, and when poskim submitted these stories to the rigor of halakhic analysis, they made it clear that there is a line where the obligation to one’s parents ends and where the responsibility to oneself begins.
A case in point is the Talmud’s statement that a person must not embarrass his father even if he throws his wallet into the sea (Kiddushin 32a). This statement is codified as halakha by Rambam (Mamrim 6:7) and Shulkhan Arukh (YD 240:8). No sooner was the ink dry on this ruling than Rishonim clarified and qualified it. They noted that while one must contribute his time and effort to honor his parents, he is not required to spend his own money to do so (this is not referring to cases where one’s parents do not have enough money to provide for their own care, which is discussed extensively in halakha). Following this, they said, it would be permitted for a daughter to stop her father from destroying her property. The Talmud’s statement was referring to a case where the wallet had already been thrown into the sea. It is only once the damage was done that halakha asks the child to work to control her anger and not react in a way that would embarrass her father (see Tur YD 240 in the name of Ri and Rama; Yam Shel Shlomo, Kiddushin 1:64, see also Beit Yosef and Bach ad. loc. regarding Rambam’s position). Rema in Shulkhan Arukh rules unambiguously: one can act to prevent a parent from causing her financial harm, even if doing so causes pain to the parent (YD 240:8).
It goes without saying that this would be true in a case of emotional pain. This point is made by Rabbi Yosef Kolon (1420-1480, Italy), who ruled that a son did not have to listen to his father in regards to what woman he should marry (Shut Maharik 166:3). He writes that the mitzvah of honoring a parent does not extend to cases where it would cause emotional pain to the person. This is directly relevant to the case at hand.
If one’s parent is abusive, whether the abuse is s-xual, physical, verbal or emotional in nature, a person absolutely must prioritize his or her own health. Our first ethical obligation is to ourselves and our own well-being. One is not just permitted to act this way; one is obligated to do so.
As in any matter of health, one must make sure that he or she is getting the best advice. Sometimes it will make more sense to find a constructive way to engage with this is possible, if this is possible, rather than to disengage completely. All of this should be worked out and thought through with a competent therapist or mental health professional.
Often, even if the abuse is in the past, maintaining an ongoing relationship with an abusive parent, let alone showing him or her honor and respect, can be deeply emotionally and psychically damaging. The person should try to determine what course of action would be in her best interests, and this can often be aided by working with a therapist. If for her mental and emotional health she feels that she must move away or cut off or limit interactions with the parent, then that is what she should do.
In his responsa, Rabbi Kolon also states that a person is not required to honor his parent if it will cause him to commit a sin. By demanding that his son marry a woman whom he does not love, says Rabbi Kolon, the father is causing him to transgress the prohibition against hating another Jew. The same would be true in this case. Asking someone to honor his parents knowing it will cause the child emotional or psychological harm, is asking that person to violate his obligations to himself and his own well-being. It is forbidden to honor one’s parent in such a situation.
Others argue that an abusive parent should be defined as a rasha, a wicked person, which would then alleviate the child of his kibbud av v’em obligations (regarding honoring a wicked parent in general, see SA YD 240:18, Shakh no. 20, Pithei Teshuvah, no. 15, and Yabia Omer 8:21). While I do not question for a minute that many abusive parents are indeed reshaim, I am leery of using this halakhic argument. I do not want to be in the business of labeling who is or is not a rasha. People and relationships are complex. The acts might be wicked acts, but not everyone who emotionally abuses her child is an evil person. For me, the point to underscore is that self-care comes first.
What about when it comes to attending the funeral or sitting shiva for one’s abusive parent? Halakha rules that eulogies are given to honor the deceased, not the living relatives (YD 344:10). Just as one need not honor this parent in life, she need not honor him after he has passed away. In addition, there are times when it would be terribly painful for a child to attend the funeral of his abusive parent and hear people eulogizing and extolling the virtues of the deceased. Once again, self-care takes precedence, and if necessary for her mental health, the child should not attend under such situations.
When it comes to shiva, Rema rules that this is an independent obligation and not just performed to honor the deceased. Other poskim disagree and rule that shiva is primarily for the deceased (see SA YD 344:10 and Pithei Teshuvah, no. 2). A child who has come to the determination that it is not healthy for him to sit shiva for an abusive parent can certainly rely on the latter opinion, and is not obligated to show the honor otherwise due to a deceased parent. Following the same logic, one would also not be required to say Kaddish and Yizkor.
Even if shiva is an independent obligation, it is rabbinic in nature, and the person’s health must take precedence. In cases of weightier Biblical mitzvah, like taking a lulav and an esrog, halakhah exempts a person if the financial cost to him is too high (SA OH 656:1). The same would certainly be true when it comes at the cost of emotional suffering (see, in this regard, Nishmat Avraham, EH 1:1). When damaging to a person’s health, sitting shiva is not something that halakhah dictates, and should not be construed as such.
Sometimes it will be helpful for a child to sit shiva or some modified form of it to achieve a sense of closure. At the end of the day, the person should make the best decision for his or her mental and emotional health, with the aid of a therapist if appropriate.
Honoring one’s parents is a weighty Biblical mitzvah. But there are other things that matter more. Taking care of one’s health and well-being is one of them. Therefore, if the mitvah creates great distress, one should see a therapist and work out what the best way to manage this distress is.

taketwo

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:32 pm

If said parent fits the halachic definition of a parent. Most abusive parents are not halachically considered parents after they've abused their kids. It's pretty simple BestBubby.

steak4me

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:35 pm

Must One Honor an Abusive Parent?

While honoring parents is a core Jewish value, so is protecting one's health and well-being.

By Rabbi Peretz Rodman

We learn what we truly value when the principles we hold true come into conflict with one another. Such is the case with a son or daughter who must determine how to relate to an abusive parent. The Torah requires that we honor our parents. But does this imperative extend to a parent who has been physically or emotionally abusive?

The Jewish tradition puts great emphasis on the honor a child should show his or her parents. It goes beyond the general exhortation of the Ten Commandments: “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long on the soil that the Lord your God has given you” (Exodus 20:12). Rabbinic law and legend and medieval and modern ethical tracts give very specific guidelines for the ways in which honor for parents is to be translated into concrete actions and prohibitions.

On the other hand, the Jewish people are exhorted by the Torah: “You shall be very watchful of yourselves” (Deuteronomy 4:15), which is understood in classical biblical interpretation to be a call to guard one’s own health and well-being. When working with the children of abusive parents, mental health professionals urge those children to make a careful separation from the abusive parent, for the sake of self-preservation.

How, then, does one obey both imperatives? To what extent, and in what ways, should a child show respect for such a parent? Even if a son or daughter does choose to fulfill the biblical mandate, can it be done in a way that does not expose him or her to further damage?

Parents are Warned
Rabbinic literature is fully aware of the potential for abuse of parental power, and there are many passages in which parents are warned of the ill effects of physical and emotional abuse. We read in the Talmud (Gittin 6b): “Rabbi Hisda said: A man should never impose excessive fear upon his household, or else he may be the cause of great tragedy. […] Rabbi Judah said in the name of Rav: If a man imposes fear upon his household, he will eventually commit the three sins of illicit s-xual relations, bloodshed, and the desecration of the Sabbath.” Meaning, his wife will not observe the laws of ritual purity because she is afraid to tell her husband she is not yet allowed to have relations with him, members of his family will meet with disastrous fates after running away from home, and the household will relight a lamp on the Sabbath for fear of his anger at being in the darkness.

In another instructive Talmudic tale (Mo’ed Katan 17a), a domestic servant of a prominent sage saw a man beating his grown-up son and, displaying the rabbinic wisdom she had picked up in the rabbi’s household, said: “Let that man be put under a ban, for he transgressed the admonition of the Torah: Before the blind you shall not place a stumbling block (Leviticus 19:14).” Her concern was that by striking his son he was, even if inadvertently, goading the son into striking his father, an offense with dire consequences in biblical law.

A more shocking report of child abuse in Talmudic literature is the story told in Tractate Semahot, chapter 2, about a child from B’nai Brak who was so afraid of the excessive punishment usually meted out by his father that he committed suicide.

Clearly, the Rabbis who shaped classical Judaism offered no sanction to child abuse, and rabbis of all denominations have spoken out in recent years in opposition to the abuse of children by parents or teachers. But did the Rabbis see such behavior as sufficient to release the child from responsibilities toward the parent?

Problematic Models
While Talmudic law does not directly address the question of respecting an abusive parent, it does provide a window into Rabbinic thinking through anecdotes that consistently portray an adult child showing respect for an abusive parent.

Stories about the filial piety of a non-Jew, Dama son of Netina, are offered by the Talmudic sages (Kiddushin 31a) as a model in response to the question “How far does the honor of parents extend?” In one of the anecdotes, “Dama was wearing a gold embroidered silken cloth and sitting among the Roman nobles, when his mother came, tore it off from him, struck him on the head, and spat in his face, yet he did not shame her.”

Another story told in the same discussion shows us Rabbi Tarfon crouching down for his mother to use his back as a stepstool to get in and out of her bed. When he told others about this, they were unimpressed and asked him, “Has she thrown a purse before you into the sea without your shaming her?” That, they were telling him, is the standard to which one must aspire.

Honor the Person or Honor the Role?
Now that we see how aware the sages of the Talmud were of the issues, we are forced to ask: did they indeed expect us to follow the example of Dama ben Netina and the others, who seem to have swallowed more than just their pride as they continued to offer obedience and respect to parents who mistreated them?

Two answers may be given. First, it is possible that we are to understand the parents in those tales as mentally unstable. Deranged parents, like any mentally ill person, cannot be held accountable for their actions, and as such they still deserve care and tolerance. The pain they inflict must be seen as unintentional.

Another, not unrelated understanding of those tales is this: one honors one’s parent for being a parent, and not for how well or how poorly that parent has lived up to the demands of their role. If the child of an abusive parent lives up to Jewish society’s expectations of proper filial respect despite the emotional difficulty involved, he or she makes a powerful statement about the role of parenthood, one made all the more salient by the knowledge of friends and relatives that the relationship was a strained or even severed one. Whether by refraining from a public response of anger or by taking a positive step, including observing mourning practices and reciting kaddish after a parent has died, an individual who incurred emotional or physical harm at the hand of a parent can still affirm the importance of parenthood itself, even while rejecting his or her particular parent as a model for how that role should be fulfilled.

Two Kinds of Evil
In his book God, Love, relations and Family, Rabbi Michael Gold looks at how post-Talmudic authorities deal with this difficult question. Gold cites a passage from the Gemara about the problem of property stolen by a parent and passed on a child through inheritance: must it be returned by the heir to its owner? That depends on the parent–if he repented of his crime, the children must try to return the property as an act of respect to the parent. “The clear implication, writes Gold, “is that if the father did not repent but remained a wicked man, the children do not need to honor him.”

In practice, most post-Talmudic halachic authorities have tended to agree with this implied conclusion, but not the medieval commentator, philosopher, and codifier Maimonides. In Maimonides’ view, even the unrepentant parent is still due honor and reverence. Yehiel Michal Halevi Epstein, 19th-century author of the Aruch HaShulhan, offers an insight into Maimonides’ difficult opinion. He suggests that Maimonides called for honoring a parent who has lost control of his appetite, but not for one whose actions are intentionally harmful. The latter is an evil person, not worthy of being shown respect by his children.

In such a case, a son or daughter may and should refrain from honoring a parent if doing so will destroy his or her own self, writes Gold. Professional therapy is advised, and it may be necessary to separate from the parent for some time, perhaps even a number of years. Ultimately, one may reach an accommodation with a parent who was abusive or perhaps even forgive the parent — but it should not be at the cost of ruined self-esteem.

steak4me

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:42 pm

https://www.jewishcommunitywat.....s.pdf

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:45 pm

The definition of what is "abuse" keeps expanding.

I don't think the halachic definition of abuse and the
Anti Torah secular definition are the same.

There are no perfect parents, yet Hashem commanded us to Honor our Imperfect parents.

One must also remember the the good ones parents did, how hard they worked, the hundreds of thousands $$$ they spent on their children, the sacrifice of all their time and energy.
Does that count for NOTHING???

there is also a mitzvah to forgive, and make sholom.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:46 pm

Abuse means abuse. There are 613 mitzvohs it says a lot when a person can only focus on one and insist that only it be kept with all chumros.

steak4me

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:49 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

We were commanded to honor parents. Some parents fall under the category of rasha and the command doesn’t apply there.

There is a mitzvah to forgive and make shalom, but there is an obligation to take care of one’s self and sanity. And that trumps the mitzvah of making shalom.

Money and time and energy is worth nothing if you hurt a child to the point that they cannot have a relationship with you.

taketwo

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:50 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Leave halachic definitions to the Rabbis.

If a parent did everything good but once a week abused their child in a terrible way, they are still not considered a parent. A true parent does not do that to their own child.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:51 pm

Abuse means abuse?

So if a parent ever yelled at a child, the child can cut the parents off?

After the parents paid for school, camps, seminary, and the wedding, furniture etc.

amother

Stonewash

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:52 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Best bubby, why do you keep bringing up this topic which is clear that you have an agenda to hurt the people who were abused on this site!

taketwo

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:52 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Abuse means abuse?

So if a parent ever yelled at a child, the child can cut the parents off?

After the parents paid for school, camps, seminary, and the wedding, furniture etc.

Abuse does not mean once in a while yelling.

Abuse means cutting a child's self worth into smithereens

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:54 pm

Anyone with intelligence understands that parents have power and can abuse children. There are no answers for someone who plays stupid and pretends it’s about perfection. Continuously starting these passive aggressive threads as if all people on here don’t understand the mitzvohs or their situations speaks volumes about you.

taketwo

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:56 pm

BestBubby here is an article posted in another thread here, that gives a few examples of one kind of abuse. There are many other kinds. But read this one to get a little bit more educated about the other side of the story. Tishabav is a great day to learn to love all of klal yisroel, even those who had to cut off their parents. Try and learn a little bit more to understand their side and thereby show some love to your fellow jew.

https://mishpacha.com/shattered/

amother

Stonewash

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:56 pm

Posted in another thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/raise.....t=500

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:57 pm

amother [ Stonewash ] wrote:

Best bubby, why do you keep bringing up this topic which is clear that you have an agenda to hurt the people who were abused on this site!

It is OTHER people who bringing up cutting off parents. I RESPOND to that, but otherwise don't bring up this topic.

There is a PRIVATE forum for abused children to vent.

When people keep bringing this up in the PUBLIC forum I believe they are ENCOURAGING others to cut off their parents. So I speak out.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:58 pm

You need a private forum to vent about all your kids cutting you off. You get off the public board.

steak4me

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:58 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Abuse means abuse?

So if a parent ever yelled at a child, the child can cut the parents off?

After the parents paid for school, camps, seminary, and the wedding, furniture etc.

Yes, abuse means abuse

And if you’ll find me one parent that never yelled at their child we can have a conversation about cutting off because of yelling.

And we all know that yelling sometimes at a child isn’t abuse. Everything in context. Yes, I yell at my daughter that a car is coming when she’s in the street not looking where she is going. Yes, I yell at my son to not touch the pot on the stove. No, I do not yell at my children that they are “worthless children, there is nothing good about them and they will die young because they don’t honor me”

(Those were actual things yelled at a child who cut off contact with her parents)

In that situation, the paying for seminary and camp mean nothing as a parent. It just proves that they provided in one manner. Loving Parents
Provide their children with everything. They meet their physical AND emotional needs. One doesn’t negate the other. And without both, one isn’t considered a good parent.

mommyisbest

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 7:59 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

You were responded to really well in this thread. You were debunked. Why bring it up again?
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....rt=20

mommyisbest

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 8:00 pm

Here:

isha_kesheira wrote:

That is the Torah view - there is no need to remain in contact with someone who when your around them constantly reminds you of your pain. Chayecha kodmin.

And abuse is not broadly defined. The definition of abuse is where a person IN A POWER POSITION misuses his power to take advantage or similarly hurt a person who is under his influence. Such a person has shown they are unworthy of that power. Thus, a parent who sacrifices his or her child's self-esteem and puts them down to reinforce his or her fragile ego and a parent who constantly manipulates his or her child to do whats best for the parent in the place of whats best for the child has lost the right to be considered the parent with its attendant rights because he or she has abused his or her power.

A child cutting off the parent is not abuse unless the child is in charge of the parent. It may be painful (and it may sometimes even be wrong) but not everything that is painful is abuse. But a parent who mistreats his or her children is abuse, because of the underlying power dynamic.