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-> Interesting Discussions
imorethanamother
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Mon, Aug 08 2022, 10:19 pm
b.chadash wrote: |
Regarding what imorethanamother said, I heard that the argument was about meat bones on Shabbos. Hillel and Shammai disagreed on the proper was to dispose of them. Rabbi Zecharya Ben Avkilus took kind of a cowards approach, not siding with either opinion. Apparently this was the only other time his name is mentioned in the gemara, and so this idea is borne out of the corollary between these two events.
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Found the speech! That took a while.
https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....45338
Hillel said that bones can be lifted and put in the garbage, while Shamai said bones need to be shaken off via a tablecloth and throw in the garbage. (Although it's unclear whether those opinions are actually reversed). RZBA - while he was eating, he would spit the bone out from his mouth to behind the couch. So he held of neither, so Reb Yosi said this exact situation is why he's responsible for the churban. Not even the korban, this halacha of shabbos.
I really liked this speech.
It also raises another question.
What if Bar Kamtza was a known child pedophile? Or a get refuser? Is it still bad that the host threw him out? As Rabbi Jacobson said, the Chazon Ish knows that Bar Kamtza was a rasha because look at his reaction to this incident.
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b.chadash
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Tue, Aug 09 2022, 2:35 pm
Right. So it seems that no matter how bad the person is, Hashem cares about his dignity. His shame.
The gemara's point is to say, see how careful one has to be with another person's busha.
Honestly, I think we might argue that it doesn't necessarily follow that the host was wrong in kicking him out. But the shame of a person will have consequences.
The Michtav M'Eliyahu has a famous piece about Chana and Penina. Penina antagonized Chana in order so that she should daven. Her intentions were good. Nevertheless, as a result, Penina suffered the loss of 8 of her sons. The Michtav M'Eliyahu says that even if a person means it 100% lesheim shomayim, if he hurts someone else, he will be hurt by it. Hurting another is like fire.
He gives a mashal of a person who rushes into a fire to save someone trapped in a burning building. His intentions are honorable. But that will not prevent him from suffering major burns on his body. It's just the nature of onaas Devarim. It's fire.
So I would postulate that perhaps the host would not be wrong in ejecting a guest from his house if he was a rapist or whatever. Some commentators say Bar kamtza was a Tzeduki who hated the Perushim. He was always trying to befriend the Romans and make trouble for the Torah-true Jews. So maybe it was lesheim shomayim, and it was correct that he was sent out of the party. But that wouldn't alter the fact that Bar kamtza felt humiliated and there is always a price to pay for that. Maybe he should have sent him out, but tried to do it in a way so as not to embarrass him.
I'm not sure it's a valid argument to say maybe he really was correct in sending him out, just as we probably can't say that Penina was ultimately right in harassing Chana because it got her to daven.
The gemara says he was the host's enemy. I guess the question is - was his hatred against the man personal in nature, or was it because the man was an enemy of yiddishkeit. Not that it ultimately makes a difference. But if it was personal in nature, then there was no "lesheim shomayim" there to possibly excuse him.
Last edited by b.chadash on Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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b.chadash
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Thu, Aug 11 2022, 12:07 am
Thank you pinkfridge.
I will try to listen to it tomorrow.
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relaxation
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Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:26 pm
I watched this again. Very insightful
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b.chadash
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Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:44 pm
relaxation wrote: | I watched this again. Very insightful |
Thanks for bumping this thread! It's always interesting to read things you wrote a long time ago.
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TheNeutralOne
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Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:46 pm
I like to replace Kamtza and Bar Kamtza with vaccinated and unvaccinated. That’s a picture our generation has seen many times.
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relaxation
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Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:55 pm
TheNeutralOne wrote: | I like to replace Kamtza and Bar Kamtza with vaccinated and unvaccinated. That’s a picture our generation has seen many times. | not sure what you mean.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:14 pm
TheNeutralOne wrote: | I like to replace Kamtza and Bar Kamtza with vaccinated and unvaccinated. That’s a picture our generation has seen many times. |
There was a Binah article sometime within the last few months about people who could still be friends, even on opposite sides of an issue.
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