Thoughts in past affect our future?

amother

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:03 pm

We are taught that the machshavos we have in mind during relations affect our child, am I right? We are taught that at the time of our wedding we are forgiven for all "sins" we may have done, correct?

The big Q:

If for example during relations a thought goes through my head ie a movie pic (I watched b4 marriage) or whatever, why would it affect my child if I was forgiven for it, the day I was married when all our sins our forgiven?

amother pm'd me (motek) with this question and when we went back and forth until amother was satisfied, I asked her whether we could post the exchange for the benefit of others

she said yes, so here it is:

Quote:

me: I would have to do research to find out what that actually means. I mean, without doing actual teshuva the slate is just wiped clean? No matter what you did? I don't know. I'm wondering how it works.

Quote:

Well it says about your wedding day that it's compared to a YK katan, aren't all our aveiros on YK wiped clean, no matter what we did? And we do teshuva, there's a special mincha we say...

me: I don't see the question. Even let's say you were completely forgiven for anything you did before marriage, okay fine. But now here you are, in the PRESENT, and the thought you are having is happening in the PRESENT. True, it passes through your mind because you saw it before you married, but that doesn't make it any different in its effect than if you simply thought that image up yourself without seeing any movies.

does this make sense to you?

Quote:

Not for the fact that the image does come up from the past, you are not seeing the movie now. Or another example, let's say you had a past with boys and all of a sudden a pic comes up of him in front of you and not at all bc you were thinkin about it but thought are wild in your head, that thoguht should affect your child, the sin is past, the thought is present but the thought which is present is about the past!?

me: and of course you would agree that even if our sins are completely erased, it doesn't mean that we don't remember things that we did, right? We are a sum total of all our experiences, everything we've seen and heard and thought.

so although we are forgiven, RIGHT NOW IN THE PRESENT we have to deal with what comes our way, and what comes our way may be an image from the past which isn't that great, a song we heard, a scene we witnessed or read, a picture we saw

Motek

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:08 pm

Quote:

Not for the fact that the image does come up from the past, you are not seeing the movie now. Or another example, let's say you had a past with boys and all of a sudden a pic comes up of him in front of you and not at all bc you were thinkin about it but thoughts are running wild in your head, that thought should affect your child, the sin is in the past, the thought is present but the thought which is present is about the past!?

(me) you know from Tanya that a beinoni is perfect in thought, speech and action
that means he/she does not do any sin, does not say anything sinful, but what about thoughts? does it mean they never have bad thoughts?

no!
it means that as soon as an improper thought comes to them, they immediately think of something else and do not dwell on the bad thought

so the same for you and all of us, even if an improper thought should come to us, we must distract ourselves from it by thinking something else

we have no reason to expect our thoughts to be utterly pure, not during intimacy or any other time

we try our best but then, if they come to us, we move on and don't dwell on them

it helps to fill our heads with good stuff like reading good material, seeing pictures of the holy people, listening to nigunim

Last edited by Motek on Mon, Sep 26 2005, 3:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

Motek

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:09 pm

Quote:

We definitely are responsible for our experiences but then where does teshuva fit in? If we may be "punished" in the future for it, why would I want to do teshuva?

me:
how about if you don't think of it in terms of "punishment"?

we are not tzadikim and are not expected to act like tzadikim!

like I wrote above, you do your best and don't dwell on improper thoughts and then I'm sure that just the fleeting thought will have minimal effect

the Rebbe often advises people with worries etc. to have "hesech ha'daas" - to distract themselves, think about other things

THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT IMPROPER THOUGHTS, THE MORE YOU GET SUCKED INTO THINKING THEM!

Last edited by Motek on Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:10 pm

Quote:

Why would I be encouraged to do teshuva if CV I may think of something that Ive done in the past and it may reflect my actions for the future?

me
separate the two things!

there's what you did that needs teshuva, so you do teshuva because it's a mitzva to do teshuva! It entails verbalizing the sin (vidui), having regret for what you did, and committing not to do it again (and if it's bein adam l'chaveiro you need to apologize to them)

and then there's the memory of the sin and maybe things that resulted from the sin

here's an example - let's say it's a terrible sin, a person committed adultery, and let's say, G-d forbid, a child was conceived, oy!

so the person can do teshuva of course, but the child still exists, right?

it's two separate things!

see?

Motek

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:10 pm

Quote:

understand that it's 2 diff things and I really appreciate it bc so far I'm understanding what you're saying, I'm also satisfied with your responses, just one more comment:

You explained to me that it's 2 diff things, right? And you brought this example.

1-Commiting adultery is a sin= so we do teshuva
2-Child coming out= exists (you're right) but is called a chala(la?)

So the baby is still affected... Confused

me :

the child of adultery is a mamzer which is bad news bec. a mamzer can only marry another mamzer or a ger

a chalala is the child of a kohen who married a woman he is not allowed to marry like a divorcee

baby still affected - that's like a crack baby born to a drug addict and a child with fetal alcohol syndrome born to an alcoholic

it's not the baby's fault but it has to live with the consequences!

Last edited by Motek on Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

Motek

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:11 pm

Quote:

I like that example alot better, more clarifying, thank you!

But that still means your thought in the present regarding a thought in the past will still "affect" your kids."

Then where does being forgiven come in.

me :

just like a thought of having met the Rebbe (if you did) in the past will have a positive effect on your kid! -like I said earlier, the fact that you were forgiven doesn't mean it was erased from your memory
it's your job to fill up your life with positive thoughts and activities and when a negative thought comes to you, to immediately think of something else - you can even have a good thought "prepared" like in case a negative image comes to you, you will immediately think of the Rebbe or someone you love or a Torah or ..

Motek

Thu, Sep 22 2005, 9:12 pm

Quote:

Motek

Wed, Sep 28 2005, 6:34 am

At the end of chapter 7 of Tanya it says, quoting a Gemara in Chagiga and a verse in Koheles, "Which is a 'fault that cannot be rectified?' - having incestuous intercourse and giving birth to a mamzer."

For then, says Tanya, though the sinner undertakes such great teshuva as "teshuva of great love", he cannot cause the chayus (vitality) to rise to Kedusha since it has already descended into this world and had been clothed in a body of flesh and blood.

The 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe explains that if the teshvua is powerful enough, it can actually effect the death of the mamzer and once it ceases to be a body of flesh and blood, its chayus can rise to Kedusha.

There's a story that illustrates this, a long story about the rav who the Mittler Rebbe told to be a wagon driver who ended up meeting a Jew who had strayed so far that he had married a gentile woman and had children with her. When this man did teshuva he was so remorseful that he was sick on the verge of death, until someone came and informed him that a terrible thing had taken place, his family had been traveling and drowned.

TzenaRena

Thu, Sep 29 2005, 9:09 am

Just for accuracy's sake (the Rebbeim were m'dayek to tell every detail of a story with accuracy) Actually it was the Alter Rebbe. The chossid was Reb Yosef of Beshenkovitch, and after he had accomplished his shlichus of bringing the graf's secretary, Solomon Gametzky to Teshuva, he went to Lubavitch, to the Mittler Rebbe.(the AR had been nistalek in the interim.)

The Mittler Rebbe told him that he had accomplished his Shlichus. "My father took a lamdan and made him into a wagon driver. Now, he has instructed to take a wagon driver, and make him into a mashpia", and R. Yosef who was originally well-known as a great scholar now became the spiritual guide for young Avreichim in the town of Beshenkovitch.