Addressing Chutzpah

mha3484

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 12:29 pm

That is a really good example. I think a lot of toys scattered feels overwhelming. I would say sara can you please pick up x number of dolls. Make it concrete. Use your seichel what a good number is. Dont make it open ended. She can eat something and then do another round.

amother

Banana

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 12:46 pm

The question is if you want to use force: you must do what I say or else!
Or if you want to keep it pleasant and nurturing.

Nobody likes to be forced into things, not kids and not adults.
Especially when it comes to a mitzva (cleaning for shabbos, listening to a parent), negative interactions brings negative associations with mitzvos.
Force and negativity is asking for a power struggle as well, which you don't start because you will not win long-term.

If you can think creatively how to make her want to clean up so that it's not you begging for a clean floor, it's her wanting the clean floor, then you win. You get your clean floor and a nurtured child.
Every interaction with our children can add to their nurturing or the opposite.

How to Talk so Kids Listen teaches how to gain cooperation in a pleasant, easy way.

If she is still resisting cleaning up after all that, then perhaps on fridays only easy to clean toys will be allowed in the living room.

taketwo

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 12:53 pm

Would choices work for her? "Would you like to pick up the dolls or sweep the floor instead of me so I can pick up the dolls?"

Or "the dolls need to be put away before shabbos, shabbos is in 25 mins, when would you like to pick them up?"

Or "how many dolls would you like to pick up now? The rest needs to be done before shabbos"

taketwo

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 12:56 pm

And I second or third the How to Talk So Kids Will Listen book. Definitely don't use the kibbud Av Veim card, it never works and it just puts you into enemy territory.

Talk about kibbud av veim should be done at a calm time through stories and conversations not involving their actual parents, more the idea of respecting parents. It should definitely not be used to get a non-compliant child to comply in the moment.

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 1:06 pm

Don't the BYs and Yeshivas teach about Kibbud Av V'Eim???

I heard this over and over when I went to school!

Stories about the non-Jew who would not wake up his father to earn a fortune.

Or the non-Jewish official who did not react when his mentally ill mother started hitting him in public.

Also, each PARENT should stick up for the OTHER PARENT.

So OP's HUSBAND should rebuke and punish DD for disobeying and screaming at Mother.

And OP should stick up for her husband.

BrisketBoss

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 1:16 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

So basically, you think parents should not care about children's perspectives or difficulties unless the child is extraordinarily lucky enough to possess the skills to initiate the conversation and speak up for themselves in a properly respectful manner. And then when these disregarded children grow up, they must maintain a relationship with their parents and give them kavod. Maybe that worked in an earlier age.

#BestBubby

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 1:18 pm

The Parents can teach the children how to make respectful requests.

It is not rocket science to say:

"Mommy, can I play for 5 more minutes, and then I'll clean up" OR

"Mommy, it's too hard for me. Can I have some help?"

It is not asking too much of children to speak respectfully, after being TAUGHT.

BrisketBoss

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 1:32 pm

Bottom line OP, you should never be asking over and over again until you explode. You should only ask two times at most. Parents and children should not be adversaries.

With an older child like yours, you should let it go for the moment and have a conversation about it later at a neutral time. In this conversation, you use true curiosity and non-judgmentalness to find out what's going on, what's hard. You don't ask "Why won't you listen to me?" but something more like "Hey, I noticed we've been fighting about this, what's going on?" It might take a little while or a few tries before she believes you and you get her talking. You reflect back her concerns to her until you're sure you've got them all. Then you share your own concerns and invite her to help you think of a way that both of your concerns can be addressed. That's CPS in a nutshell but there are books and a website as other people referenced.

Once you think about it, it all becomes very logical and obvious. Of course the child is the only one who really knows what's getting in their way. Without consulting them, you can't make progress. Some parents do try asking but they don't ask in a way that works.

Another cool thing about CPS is it takes the pressure off you to have the answers as to how to handle your child. You don't, after all. So you make your child your problem solving partner.

BrisketBoss

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 1:39 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Per Modern Parenting you can ASK your child to help, but they don't have to listen if they don't feel like.

No wonder the divorce rate is 50% - everyone is raising children to be self-centered lazy brats.

Actually, one of the top reasons for divorce is arguments--not enough problem solving skills. The respectful method that I described would help with that. It's not just for kids. You can use these skills all your life.

taketwo

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 1:48 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

We talk about kibbud av veim at the right time. When the child is not complying is not that time. The child's emotional brain is over stimulated and access to the logical won't be so accessible at that time. Plus, the child will view kibbud av veim as a way to just get them to do what you want.

Using kibbud av veim as a way to get the child to do something isn't going to work for your child's benefit. The child is the one who has the mitzva, teaching the child that at other times when the child is able to logically process in the brain is better for them.

amother

Topaz

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 3:03 pm

amother OP wrote:

An example
LOL dolls are spilled out all over living room after playing a few hours. Shabbos is in a few hours.
Me: Sara* sweety can you please pick up the LOL dolls
Sara*: I'm still playing mommy
Me: I know but shabbos is really soon and we have guests tonight
Sara: I am hungry mom
Me: Sara please I ask you to pick it up
Sara: But Yehudis** played too and she isn't helping
Me: Sara PLEASE Pick it up!!
Sara: MOMMY SEE you are screaming at me. I knew it, you hate me!! STORMS OFF TO ROOM screaming.
**End Scene**

I’m also sometimes guilty of getting frustrated and raising my voice, but it really doesn’t help.

How about, “You’re hungry? I’ll prepare a yummy snack/treat for you while you clean up the toys. Thank you for being such a big helper!”

I often offer erev shabbos treats once kids have bathed, cleaned their rooms, etc. And always thank and praise for their help (even though it’s usually their mess they’re cleaning in the first place).

amother

White

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 3:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

You aren’t listening to her.

amother

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 3:21 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

Side note as someone else mentioned this as well. I really really try although obviously I am not perfect to avoid bribing with treats as I don't want food to be a reward.

amother

Brunette

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 3:32 pm

Hi op,

My daughter is the same, except shes 10.

Every single example you bought up she does exact same.
Shouting at me, I hate you, youre so mean, worst mother and more.

Then I answer back, she shouts back, then I do and then culminating in a threat and a consequence which neither of us feel good about. And I dont even keep to it always

I didnt come on here for people to tell me its unacceptable.
I came to tell you there are others in the same boat and its really really touugh to hear your kids shouting at you this way.
Makes me really resent her inside.

Hatzlocho op.
Im also following for some more good advice

amother

Phlox

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 4:16 pm

mha3484 wrote:

I find this is a great strategy. Both my dds work well with being told to pick up x amount of a specific toy. And I find they often will pick up more than the asked number.

amother

Banana

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 4:24 pm

My kids know that when I ask them to do 10, soon enough I will ask them to do another 10. And then another.
They learn from this that when there is a large formidable task, we can accomplish the entire thing by breaking it up into small parts.

Or we play the "fruit salad" game. Everyone chooses a fruit and they put the toys with the corresponding color back into the box, like a big "salad."
Whatever works.

Or the "tzedaka" game. I hold up a big bag and they put the pieces in, pretending to give tzedaka.

Or we divide the room into parts: one can clear the couch, another the carpet, another the floor not covered by the carpet, another the stairs.
I ask for volunteers and 99% of the time my children are happy to help. They don't like when they must say yes to a specific job although sometimes we do that too. Asking for a volunteer works much better.

ora_43

Mon, Aug 29 2022, 5:01 pm

If I'm understanding, the script you gave is just an example, and the issue is less that specific thing than that there is *always* a new excuse not to?

JMHO but my approach would be to have a clearly defined task and clearly defined consequences for not doing it.

When you have in mind "if she doesn't do X, Y will happen" there's less pressure on you to make sure she does X. Otherwise it can feel like, now that I've asked her to clean up the toys, I have to find a way to make her do it - even if that means fighting/pleading/yelling - because otherwise it undermines my authority.

With a consequence in mind - you ask her to do it, if she doesn't, there's a consequence she doesn't like. Authority maintained.

I'd make it something that clearly follows, like, once the floor is clean (and whatever other prep is done), she can watch a video or play with special toys or whatever, but if she refuses to clean the floor she loses some of that time.

About the excuses - I mostly just ignore them.

"Kid, it's time to clean the floor."

"I'm tired."

"Are you so tired that you need to go to bed right now?" (no) "OK, so I need you to clean the floor."

"My legs hurt."

"Mmm. I need the floor clean so that I can mop."

"Why isn't someone else doing it?"

"If the toys aren't off the floor in ten minutes, you're going to start losing screen time."

Basically don't ignore completely but don't address individual arguments, either.