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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur
Making sense of rav's speech
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 9:34 am
In short the rav said that his daughter was struggling in shidduchim. He asked a gadol for advice. He was told to strengthen his emunah and truly internalize the idea that nothing happens without hashem's will. He did that and his daughter became a kallah.


I've long struggled with understanding whether our actions in avodas hashem in this world affect things that are outside of our control. Meaning, obviously smoking is bad for you. Obviously eating healthy and exercising is good for you. But what about davening? What about crying your heart out and asking hashem for help? What about saying tehilim and doing chessed? Does this change our fate?

My rav seems to say that yes, more emunah translates into better results.

The issue is that when I look at things from a birds eye view (and not on a tiny individual sample size) I just don't see it. I don't see the people who are davening and having more emunah avoiding getting cancer R'L. I don't see them avoiding fertility issues more then those that aren't putting faith in hashem. I don't see them struggling with parnasah less. Did the people who davened and cried last aseres yimei teshuva do better than those that didn't? Did they even do better than those that were mechalel shabbos and ate treif? I honestly don't think so.


I suppose this is connected to Tzadik v'ra lo. Fine. But with that in mind why am I crying my eyes out asking hashem for A, B, and C if it seems pretty clear that hashem doesn't use the system where those asking and begging for help get more help. Hashem system appears to be random and unexplainable to us. Those that don't ask and snub hashem seem to have every bit as good an outcome as those that are involved in avodas hashem.
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DustyDiamonds




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 9:51 am
Your question is a huge and deep one, and probably has many answers.

Here’s how I see it:

1) Sometimes no matter how virtuous someone is, he or she isn’t meant to receive a certain blessing.

Does anyone think the Chazon Ish wasn’t blessed with children because he didn’t have sufficient Emunah?!?! He wrote the seder Emunah U’Bitachon, which I’d encourage you to learn!

2) Sometimes Hashem arranges blessings that are “waiting” for the recipient to pray for it.

At the beginning of Creation, the rain was waiting, yet not falling, because “there was no man to ask for it”.

Once Adam prayed for rain, it fell.

It’s like Hashem created light for you in your dark room. The wiring is perfect, the switch works, it’s connected to Con Ed, and the bill is paid. Yet, it’s still dark until you flick the switch.

Sometimes Hashem has a blessing waiting for you, and He made it conditional on you praying for it, having more Emunah that it’s from Him.

And we cannot know whether blessings fall into category 1 or 2. Or another category altogether!
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:11 am
Emunah doesn't mean you get what you want. It means you get whatever it is you're supposed to get. And in this world, it looks totally random.
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:20 am
amother OP wrote:
In short the rav said that his daughter was struggling in shidduchim. He asked a gadol for advice. He was told to strengthen his emunah and truly internalize the idea that nothing happens without hashem's will. He did that and his daughter became a kallah.


I've long struggled with understanding whether our actions in avodas hashem in this world affect things that are outside of our control. Meaning, obviously smoking is bad for you. Obviously eating healthy and exercising is good for you. But what about davening? What about crying your heart out and asking hashem for help? What about saying tehilim and doing chessed? Does this change our fate?

My rav seems to say that yes, more emunah translates into better results.

The issue is that when I look at things from a birds eye view (and not on a tiny individual sample size) I just don't see it. I don't see the people who are davening and having more emunah avoiding getting cancer R'L. I don't see them avoiding fertility issues more then those that aren't putting faith in hashem. I don't see them struggling with parnasah less. Did the people who davened and cried last aseres yimei teshuva do better than those that didn't? Did they even do better than those that were mechalel shabbos and ate treif? I honestly don't think so.


I suppose this is connected to Tzadik v'ra lo. Fine. But with that in mind why am I crying my eyes out asking hashem for A, B, and C if it seems pretty clear that hashem doesn't use the system where those asking and begging for help get more help. Hashem system appears to be random and unexplainable to us. Those that don't ask and snub hashem seem to have every bit as good an outcome as those that are involved in avodas hashem.


By asking Hashem for what you want you proclaim that you admit that He is capable of giving you what you want.

By not asking him (because what if He doesn’t give?) you doubt that He is capable.

That’s why we are supposed to ask him for everything regardless how trivial it is.
Basically it is not like tefilla and mitzvot are a means to an end, but they are also self-transforming. You don’t know what’s inside of everyone, what they davened for any if they got it etc
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:45 am
DustyDiamonds wrote:
Your question is a huge and deep one, and probably has many answers.

Here’s how I see it:

1) Sometimes no matter how virtuous someone is, he or she isn’t meant to receive a certain blessing.

Does anyone think the Chazon Ish wasn’t blessed with children because he didn’t have sufficient Emunah?!?! He wrote the seder Emunah U’Bitachon, which I’d encourage you to learn!

2) Sometimes Hashem arranges blessings that are “waiting” for the recipient to pray for it.

At the beginning of Creation, the rain was waiting, yet not falling, because “there was no man to ask for it”.

Once Adam prayed for rain, it fell.

It’s like Hashem created light for you in your dark room. The wiring is perfect, the switch works, it’s connected to Con Ed, and the bill is paid. Yet, it’s still dark until you flick the switch.

Sometimes Hashem has a blessing waiting for you, and He made it conditional on you praying for it, having more Emunah that it’s from Him.

And we cannot know whether blessings fall into category 1 or 2. Or another category altogether!



I don't agree with point 2 because it seems that those that never ask for it still receive it just as frequently as those that ask for it.

Do you think the people that didn't ask for parnasah last year didn't receive it? It seems they received it just as much (often far more) as those that constantly asked.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 11:26 am
Alef Beis gimmel:
Emunah means I have zero attachment to any specific outcome in this world. Hashem is running the world and He is good. Everything Hashem does is good.

Bitachon means I feel so calm and relaxed because I know I will see easily that everything that will happen to me is clearly good.

Geula means I see Hashem in everything and I realize that Hashem has always taken care of me and has helped me serve Him. I don't need blatant miracles. Instead, I pick up on the natural "miracles" that are far greater.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 11:27 am
amother OP wrote:
I don't agree with point 2 because it seems that those that never ask for it still receive it just as frequently as those that ask for it.

Do you think the people that didn't ask for parnasah last year didn't receive it? It seems they received it just as much (often far more) as those that constantly asked.


How do you know?
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amother
Tan


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 11:33 am
READ THE BEIS HALEVI ON BITACHON and your questions will be answered!!

Kay, not so much about the tefillah and your specific questions but I think it ties in very much so.

Easy to read, short, practical, Hebrew and English available.

In short, when a person has full bitachon, he will succeed and he will have no harm/pain done to him. Have full bitachon, zero doubt, that daughter will find shidduch soon = daughter will find shidduch soon.

This doesn’t mean that someone who doesn’t have bitachon, won’t succeed. It just GUARANTEES that one with bitachon will for sure succeed.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 11:48 am
Op I agree with you.
The pov in that speech is a very naive and overly simplified one, what can I say.
If it were that "easy" don't you think mashiach would have come by now? Over the years there's no doubt in my mind that enough Jews had full emunah that he would come (why else would so many have gotten taken in by shabtai tzvi) yet he hasn't. Hashem isn't waiting for us to "believe" rather there's a point to Jewish destiny and the trajectory of all our lives.
Actually I'd find this speech a slap in the face as I know some older singles in their 40s who have been waiting and probably have more emunah than this rabbi can fathom (just that they continue to stay frum even though it's a struggle to stay in a society where there is no place for them) and I'd either skip his speeches from now on or find another shul to go to.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:15 pm
Can we stop talking about others? You literally have no idea what's going on with other people. If the reason you are asking about others who have it bad is just so that you don't have to question your own Avoda then it's just dishonest. The question is only for you. Do I have emunah and Bitachon? Did I learn shaar Habitachon even once?

If it's coming from a sense of injustice read this: https://www.chabad.org/library.....g.htm
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:45 pm
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
Can we stop talking about others? You literally have no idea what's going on with other people. If the reason you are asking about others who have it bad is just so that you don't have to question your own Avoda then it's just dishonest. The question is only for you. Do I have emunah and Bitachon? Did I learn shaar Habitachon even once?

If it's coming from a sense of injustice read this: https://www.chabad.org/library.....g.htm

It's an awful attitude to have because by default with this pov you are saying that people who are lacking certain things, it's their fault, they don't deserve it, they don't believe enough.
It's awful and it's wrong. 100%
Let that rabbi say it to the face of a frum 40 year old single. Let him say it to the couple I know in their 60s who were never blessed with children (and both are only children, one descended from Holocaust survivors with no other relatives so her family's line will end with her.). Let him say it to the people struggling their utmost to put food on the table. Let him just dare.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:48 pm
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
How do you know?




Because I can see with my very eyes that unaffiliated jews that haven't stepped into a shul or davened in decades are healthy, financially secure, aren't suffering from infertility, and aren't struggling in any aspect of life more than those that have prayed every day for the last 40 years.


Do you disagree? Is your argument that frum jews who try to have a relationship with hashem are getting less sick, living longer, having fewer miscarriages, and avoiding other bad things more than non religious jews?
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:49 pm
amother Blue wrote:
It's an awful attitude to have because by default with this pov you are saying that people who are lacking certain things, it's their fault, they don't deserve it, they don't believe enough.
It's awful and it's wrong. 100%
Let that rabbi say it to the face of a frum 40 year old single. Let him say it to the couple I know in their 60s who were never blessed with children (and both are only children, one descended from Holocaust survivors with no other relatives so her family's line will end with her.). Let him say it to the people struggling their utmost to put food on the table. Let him just dare.


A Jew is never a victim of circumstance nor of Hashem. This is about being honest with yourself. Actually knowing what Torah demands of a person and just how incredibly capable we are. Jews are unlimited. We can bend nature always.

A person is supposed to think of something that only a miracle can accomplish and figure out how to actually make that happen for yourself.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:51 pm
amother OP wrote:
Because I can see with my very eyes that unaffiliated jews that haven't stepped into a shul or davened in decades are healthy, financially secure, aren't suffering from infertility, and aren't struggling in any aspect of life more than those that have prayed every day for the last 40 years.


Everyone has challenges. There are plenty of not frum Jews that don't have this and plenty of frum Jews that do. It's not indicative of anything.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:53 pm
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
A Jew is never a victim of circumstance nor of Hashem. This is about being honest with yourself. Actually knowing what Torah demands of a person and just how incredibly capable we are. Jews are unlimited. We can bend nature always.

A person is supposed to think of something that only a miracle can accomplish and figure out how to actually make that happen for yourself.

You sound so young. And inexperienced. Not a day over 35 and actually probably younger. Wait another 10 years. See how your perspective shifts.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:55 pm
amother Blue wrote:
You sound so young. And inexperienced. Not a day over 35 and actually probably younger. Wait another 10 years. See how your perspective shifts.


Rude. I don't need to share my list of craziness with you as tempted as I am.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 12:56 pm
amother Tan wrote:
READ THE BEIS HALEVI ON BITACHON and your questions will be answered!!

Kay, not so much about the tefillah and your specific questions but I think it ties in very much so.

Easy to read, short, practical, Hebrew and English available.

In short, when a person has full bitachon, he will succeed and he will have no harm/pain done to him. Have full bitachon, zero doubt, that daughter will find shidduch soon = daughter will find shidduch soon.

This doesn’t mean that someone who doesn’t have bitachon, won’t succeed. It just GUARANTEES that one with bitachon will for sure succeed.



I appreciate your answer. I've struggled with this for a long time and even if I disagree with your response, it's uplifting that we care about each other and try to help out. That's why even though I am full of questions, I am so proud to be part of am yisroel and a community that is full of chessed and always looking to help those in need.


I feel you're giving the "it says so" answer. So even if it doesn't make any sense, since it says so, we are supposed to accept it as real.

You say that when a person is full of bitochon he will have no harm done to him. In a few days we will read about the 10 holy martyrs who were tortured and murdered by the Roman's. I guess we'd say they didn't have full bitochon? Same with all the pogroms, the holocaust, or other tragedies that have happened to great ad holy jews throughout history. I wish your answer would make sense to me but it really doesn't.

We often see the greatest people of our generation suffer. SO what do you mean that a person with betochon is guaranteed to succeed?
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amother
Valerian


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 1:00 pm
I’ve heard, relating to being written in sefer hachaim and sefer hamaves, that a persons fate, how long they’re going to live, is decided before they’re born. However, every year on Rosh Hashana Hashem decides, based on their actions, whether to lengthen or shorten it.
I think it can apply to this too.
A tzaddik may have been supposed to lose all his parnasah, (why? We don’t know) but because of his tefillos now he is barely scraping by.
A rasha may have supposed to make 5 mil this year, but because of his lack of tefillah he only made 2 mil.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 1:01 pm
https://www.chabad.org/library.....g.htm

Read it!!
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 1:04 pm
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
Everyone has challenges. There are plenty of not frum Jews that don't have this and plenty of frum Jews that do. It's not indicative of anything.




I'm trying to understand your perspective.


Are you saying that as a group, those that have more avodas hashem will see more tangible blessings in their lives and avoid the opposite more than those that ignore hashem?

Let's take Covid as an example. Do you think that tzadikim and righteous jews didn't suffer as much as unaffiliated jews?

Would you say righteous jews live longer Don't suffer from infertility?

Did you know that Hong Kong and Japan have the longest life expectancy. I don't think frum jews live in either country.

For the record, I am a fully observant religions woman. I follow halacha and have a rav. I am very happy living this lifestyle. I just think it's wrong to say that we can understand ANYTHING about hashem in this world. When I see people say otherwise, I want to understand their position.
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