Words that don't exist in loshon hakodesh

PinkFridge

Sat, Sep 17 2022, 10:37 pm

goodmorning wrote:

The English came up with a word for it too: "epicaricacy."

Google says it's rare and unaccountable.
If other languages have this concept, why don't they have verbs for it?

PinkFridge

Sat, Sep 17 2022, 10:40 pm

[url=https://www.imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6476178#6476178]
Java[/url] wrote:

Yashrus I think is more closely defined as integrity

This is from p. 1 and a discussion on the word fair. I suggested there is one: yoshor.
FYI ArtScroll and Rav Schwab zt"l translate it as fair in emes v'yatziv. Rav Munk zt"l and Rav Hirsch zt"l translate it as right.

zaq

Sun, Sep 18 2022, 12:19 pm

Before there was an Englew or Hebrish word "fehr" there was "betzedek." As in זה לא בצדק.

zaq

Sun, Sep 18 2022, 12:29 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

That doesn't bother me.

Doesn't bother me, either. I have no need to believe that everything of any value in the world was invented by the Jewish people and borrowed (or "culturally appropriated" according to current lingo) from us. Monotheism and the Mosaic moral code are impressive enough; we need not claim credit for every linguistic crumb.

WitchKitty

Sun, Sep 18 2022, 2:44 pm

It's hard to say if a word exists in Lashon hakodesh or not, because we don't actually know all the words in lashon hakodesh.
Not all the words that existed, were used in the seforim we know. There might actually be words for 'fun' or 'gel', they were just not written in any place that lasted.

goodmorning

Sun, Sep 18 2022, 2:59 pm

zaq wrote:

I know the context in which it is used, but your statement explains nothing. Why was it necessary to use this term which is, face it, not something we would say in the presence of our grandmother or our young children? The same verbally economical Torah that nevertheless famously troubles itself to say "lo tehorah" instead of "t'meah" when discussing the animals to be brought into Noah's ark? The identical idea could have been conveyed by stating "Kol zachar," unless the intent was to exempt infants who aren't old enough to stand to do their business and old men who are too debilitated to ditto. But the intent was clearly to obliterate every male regardless of age or condition.

I stand by my point that even l'shon hakodesh has graphic expressions that are not hints or euphemisms. They are few and far between, but check out Devarim 28:30, similarly Zechariah 14:2 and Isaiah 13:6. Some may argue that they are simply clinical terms devoid of any taint of vulgarity. Yet the Masoretes evidently considered them objectionable, which is why the kri substitutes a less problematic word.

Berucha shekivant. Smile

That is exactly the Ramban's argument on the Rambam's statement.

From Ramban Shemos 30:13

quoting the Rambam:

Quote:

והרב אמר במורה הנבוכים (ג ח) אל תחשוב שנקרא לשוננו לשון הקדש לגאותינו או לטעותינו, אבל הוא בדין, כי זה הלשון קדוש לא ימצאו בו שמות לאבר הבעילה בזכר או בנקבה, ולא לטפה ולשתן ולצואה רק בכנוי ואל יטעה אותך ''שגל'' (תהלים מה י), כי הוא שם אשה המזומנת למשכב, ואמר ישגלה (דברים כח ל) על פי מה שנכתב עליו, ופירושו יקח אשה לפילגש:
Now the Rabbi [Moshe ben Maimon] has written in the Moreh Nebuchim: “Do not think that our language is called the Sacred Language just as a matter of our pride, or it be an error on our part, but it is perfectly justified; for this holy language has no special names for the organs of generation in male or female, nor for semen, nor for urination or excretion, excepting in indirect language. Be not misled by the word sheigal [to take it to mean the act of intercourse; this is not the case,] but it rather denotes a female ready for intercourse. It says yishgalenah in accordance with what has been written on it, and it means that ‘he will take the woman as a concubine.’”

And the Ramban's argument:

Quote:

: והנה אין צורך לטעם הזה, כי הדבר ברור שהלשון קדש קדשים הוא כמו שפירשתי והטעם שהזכיר על דעתי איננו אמת, כי מה שיכנו ישגלנה, ישכבנה, יורה כי משגל שם עצם לבעילה, וכן יכנו לאכול את חוריהם (מלכים ב י״ח:כ״ז), כי הוא שם מגונה.
Now there is no need for this reason [why Hebrew is called the Sacred Language], for it is clear that the Hebrew language is most holy, as I have explained. And the reason [Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon] mentioned is in my opinion not correct. The mere fact that [the masters of the Masorah] have circumscribed the word yishgalenah [to be read as] yishk’venah (he will lie with her), shows that the word mishgal is the term for s-xual intercourse itself. Similarly the fact that they circumscribed the expression, to eat ‘et choreihem’ [to be read eth tzo’atam — “their dung”] shows that choreihem is an indecent term.

(FWIW, Rashi translates מַשְׁתִּ֥ין בְּקִֽיר as a dog: אפילו כלב, שדרכו להשתין בקיר (Shmuel I 25:22, see also Radak there and Bava Basra 19b.)

salt

Tue, Oct 25 2022, 5:42 am

Happydance wrote:

Fair

הוגן

Just came across this thread now.
There is no verb in Hebrew/ lashon hakodesh meaning 'to own'. 'I own this.'
You can say זה שייך לי - it belongs to me. But not I own it.

I think that's because everything is owned by hashem.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 25 2022, 6:37 am

salt wrote:

בעל mean to own. I own that car. אני בעל הרכב.

zaq

Tue, Oct 25 2022, 11:01 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

בעל mean to own. I own that car. אני בעל הרכב.

בעל means "master of" which in modern Ivrit means "owner." But there is no active verb "to own." Ani baal harchev means literally "I am the owner of that vehicle," not "I own the vehicle." Significant? maybe, maybe not.

Salt, there are many instances in Chumash where a person is referred to as "baal" something, meaning its owner or possessor, as in"baal habayit" the homeowner or head of household Shmot 24:7; "baal canaf" meaning a bird, Mishlei 1:17 or "baal habor," the owner of the pit into which someone fell, Shmot 21:34. It can also mean "one who has mastered" a skill, such as "baalei chitzim," or archers, Bereshit 49:23; or "one who engages in" an act, such as "baalei sh'vuah" Nehemiah 6:18.

There is also a verb 'liv'ol" which means "to possess" in a carnal sense, but that's not what we're talking about here.

My point is that the lack of a verb "to own" does not necessarily come from an acknowledgement that G-d is the master of everything. For why is there no verb "to own" applicable solely to G-d?

salt

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 12:34 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

בעל mean to own. I own that car. אני בעל הרכב.

No verb "to own"
Owner is ba'al, true.

salt

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 12:36 am

zaq wrote:

My point is that the lack of a verb "to own" does not necessarily come from an acknowledgement that G-d is the master of everything. For why is there no verb "to own" applicable solely to G-d?

True, there's no G-dly word for "to own" just for Hashem Himself. Was just an observation - not mine, I heard it in some shiur once.

#BestBubby

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 12:44 am

goodmorning wrote:

OP, the Rambam famously wrote that Lashon Hakodesh is called by that name because it does not contain any "non-holy" words, such as the words for reproductive organs and procreation. It relies on the use of euphemisms and hints instead.

Yes. The word for intimacy is "yodah" to know.

mitzva

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 12:56 am

there is a Yiddish word
מיטפרייען
which is usually used in the context of
rejoicing with someone else's simcha

imorethanamother

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 8:18 pm

Just came across this thread, so delightful! Zaq, your posts are amazing!!

I forget which show this was on, (serugim?) where the man who develops Hebrew words was on the show, and was asked what the Hebrew word for internet is. Nobody uses it in Israel, of course, but it blew my mind that people still have to do this.

zaq

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 9:35 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Yes. The word for intimacy is "yodah" to know.

There is also the word "leshagel" which the Masoretes felt was too crude and substituted "lishkav". Ladaat really does mean "to know intimately" whereas "leshagel" has the very negative connotation of having carnal knowledge in a lewd or, especially, hostile manner. But it's there in Tanach, folks. Read it and weep.

zaq

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 9:59 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Why, thank you!

Yes, yes! Avshalom Kor. Top Israeli linguist. I loved that episode of Srugim and thanks to it, will never forget that the Hebrew word for Internet is Mirshetet. I use the word just because I can. (Who says TV is not educational?) Also because I have an ingrained horror of using an English word when there's a perfectly good Hebrew one that means the same thing.

Language is a living thing and constantly evolves to keep up with changing times. New words are coined all the time, and not just in Hebrew. The Technological Age creates a constant need for new terms for new inventions as well as new uses for existing words.

zaq

Wed, Oct 26 2022, 10:03 pm

salt wrote:

True, there's no G-dly word for "to own" just for Hashem Himself. Was just an observation - not mine, I heard it in some shiur once.

And, ironically, one of the major deities of the Canaanite nations was called...Baal. In fact, Baal is practically a generic term for "Mesopotamian deity." The neviim are always raging about the worship of "the Baals"--apparently there were many of them.