WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out

the world's best mom

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:09 am

chestnut wrote:

To be fair, OP is the product of this society. All girls sound similar on the paper, might as well choose the ones with richer parents, so the son lives and learns comfortably. She's just following the trend.

I agree. But this is a very sad reality.

Unfortunately, some of us are living in a society in which money is considered an important thing to take into account in a shidduch, and it is expected that everyone will use their money to support a sil in learning or else you have no chance of finding a shidduch, at least with a learning boy.

This is all fairly new. The Chofetz Chaim worked to make money. Most rabanim used to, because there were no wealthy parents willing to support them. Yet, they managed to keep their learning as the most important thing in their lives. Today's world is a little lost, and a promise of money has become a reason to end a shidduch. And don't think these boys are learning better than the Chofetz Chaim or his peers. Sad

amother

DarkYellow

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:13 am

amother OP wrote:

We assumed the girls side would offer much more support for some reason they're not and my son's not sure what to do and begging us to help him yes they're engaged so no turning back Can't Believe It

It should have been discussed but we assumed that bc they're very well off they'd be generous- it's not always the case and she's not going to know the first thing about penny pinching and saving.. I feel so stupid and annoyed 😒 we're planning on getting them on govt programs but I'm concerned she's used to a certain standard of living - even if she says she's fine living simply 🙃

First conversation should be between the chosson & kalla - to see if they are on same page on how they will live their life. Is this a 1 year kollel plan, or a 20 year plan. Will they live frugally, plain apartment, no fancy food, no vacations, simple simchas (IYH kiddush, SZ, Bris) or are they expecting to go out to eat to fancy restaurants, florida for mid-winter, Pesach at a hotel, lavish bris/kiddush etc. How do they plan on financing whatever lifestyle they choose. If Daddy is offering to support SIL in kollel - kol hakavod (but find out exactly what that entails & for how long). If you can support them - great. If not, the young couple need to figure out how to support themselves. Both of them need to be on same page before they approach you or her parents, and you discuss support with the mechutonim.

little neshamala

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:14 am

I am so taken aback by this thread.
In a way, its been very illuminating on why we have so many young couples having marriage difficulties.
The answer is clear.
Apparently we have shidduchim being made based on things that are completely irrelevant to the success of shalom bayis.
Shidduchim should be made based on the person's character, personality, middos, how well they click with you, common goals, common interests, common opinions on priorities, how well you get along with each other. Looking into how much money they have, or how much support they will give, has as much bearing on the marriage as the boy's shoe size or being allergic to milk. My bashert who I click with and cant wait to share a life with is allergic to milk? Ok, I will have to plan certain things around that.

When I dated my husband (right wing yeshivish), we clicked on all the above-mentioned criteria. One of our shared goals was to have a home of Torah, and our idea to make that happen was to have him learn as long as possible. And when it was no longer doable, then we'd shift to the next stage. So he went to learn, (we had no support) and I worked, and we managed to eke by, living verrrry frugally, for about 5 years, and then we realized together it was time for the next stage, and that was that.

You choose a shidduch based on MONEY? What about based on each other?? Money is a detail, something to be figured out, together with your bashert, just like you will together figure out all of life's many other challenges.
But if you simply arrange a marriage because it makes sense financially, then how in the world will that marriage survive life's other non-financial challenges? Money is only solving the issue of expenses!! The couple needs to be rock solid as a loving couple, connected and one, in order to tackle life's other challenges, and before you get engaged you need to find the person who you can be connected and one with!! Money?? Thats a shoe size, a food allergy. Something you work into your life.

As an aside, my brother in law married a girl from a very affluent family, with tons of support and they are now married 10 years with the support dwindling and they have zero money. They were spending money like crazy all this time (weekly manicures, luxury cars, $800 shoes, boutique clothing etc etc etc) and for reasons not relevant I know their financial details now and theyre basically broke. Its about the individual person and their personalities and habits, not about MONEY.

Last edited by little neshamala on Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:17 am; edited 2 times in total

essie14

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:15 am

I'm not sure if your son and his kallah discussed this while they were dating but this needs to be a discussion NOW.
The 2 of them need to be completely aware of what's going on. Maybe the kallah thought her parents would offer support?
Obviously you and your son had assumptions.
If the couple are both OK with going through with this marriage with no parental support , then fine. But if not, they need to break off this engagement. They need their eyes to be WIDE OPEN and not have any assumptions. Everything needs to be worked out in black and white. No vague "I sure it will all work out". They need to be in agreement about the lifestyle they are going to lead.
She needs to tell him exactly what she expects in marriage. What kind of apartment, what kind of furniture. Clothing, make up , cleaning help, take out food, etc.

amother

Oleander

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:22 am

I'm actually now nervous that in about a year we're going to have a thread on Imamother where some young woman is crying her eyes out that her DH hates her because her parents never supported them the way they were supposed to, and he takes the frustration out on her. When she was in seminary, they told her about how spiritual the kollel system was, and how she was helping make such a difference to daas Toirah, so she looked for a learning husband and is so terrified to divorce because her children will need a shidduch in 20 years, and how will they find one if she gets a divorce now? What should she do? No matter what she does, DH still hates her because he doesn't have the lifestyle he expected to get.

OP, please. Please have everyone sit down and talk.

amother

Darkblue

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:29 am

little neshamala wrote:

Sorry you are wrong.
Financial difficulties is one of the main contributors to marital strife.

Now, I'm not saying money should be the main thing to look for.
But if someone wants to stay in learning long term, and they have a choice between dating two girls and everything seems exactly the same on paper, yet one has the money to support and one doesnt, it does make sense that they may decide to date the more affluent one.

Posters here are bending over backwards to berate OP and this lifestyle (which should be a spinoff), but if they value starting off the marriage with learing, it really isn't unusual to want your son to be able to learn without financial worries.

I can say from the other side (my parents can't support much and they don't push for money from the other side either) that my brother would have much more menuchas hanefesh if he would have more support money. So it goes both ways.

little neshamala

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:37 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

Yes of course money issues cause marital strife. All sorts of issues cause strife. The key to avoiding strife, is to strengthen your shalom bayis so you can weather the storm together. Also, date properly and marry someone who is likeminded when it comes to how frugal or spendy you are.

I cannot believe people are justifying the presence of money as a serious factor when deciding if someone is meant to live the rest of your life with you as your bashert.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:41 am

watergirl wrote:

I was waiting for you to chime in here.

I hate to say this. From reading OP's posts, I am getting vibes that for her and her son, a shidduch was a transaction (like it used to be in the old days) based on what he wants and who he thinks can give it to him. I hope I am very off.

re: the bolded - I agree with this. Where I live, there is an amazing chessed org. During their annual shul appeal, they always say the biggest group of people they support are the ones living in huge houses with nice cars, who fell on hard times. That could be this family.

I wonder if this kallah's family was overjoyed that no demands were made and thought they found a real gem in terms of a boy and his family. I am SURE this boy is a gem! And I am sure the family is too! If no demands were made, it came from Hashem not to make them or to think of making them.

OP, this can work beautifully once your son comes back down to earth. He needs to sit with the kallah and a mesila advisor and work out their finances and how to make it work. They can do this! https://www.mesila.org/

Such a great positive post.

amother

Oleander

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:42 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

I think he'd have more menuchas hanefesh if he had more emunah. Maybe he could read the Garden of Emunah books?

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:42 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

And I can say from this side that you don't know if your brother would have had more menuchas hanefesh if he would've had more support money. It's easy to think that way. But the truth is, you don't know what might have come along with more support money. Increased expecatations (both from the girl and her parents telling you what you have to do when they are supporting) can also affect one's menuchas hanefesh.

This is a strawman's argument.

Sometimes one has a good job and can independantly support her husband, sometimes one has support from wealthy parents but there will be alot of interference. Sometimes the person working cannot work for some reason. The truth is that Hashem runs the world and when we try to second-guess Hashem's plan for us, we often fail dismally, because "lo machshevosai machshevoseichm". Hashem is above us and we are not capable of comprehending His ways fully. That's the truth.

amother

Darkblue

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:45 am

little neshamala wrote:

I cannot believe people are justifying the presence of money as a serious factor when deciding if someone is meant to live the rest of your life with you as your bashert.

You live in the RW world and you're shocked at the notion that people take money into account before going ahead and agreeing to a shidduch?

You don't have to agree with it, but don't pretend that it's your first time hearing it.

The huge mistake here is only that it wasn't discussed before the boy and girl met. But otherwise it's a very normal practice.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:49 am

amother Darkblue wrote:

People are human. Of course people take money into account.

But as Maaminim Bnei Maaminim, we are really supposed to know in the back of our heads (and better would be forefront in our minds) that "mentch tracht un G-t lacht". The best laid plans of mice and men do not work out according to plan. Hashem is in charge.

amother

Darkblue

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:54 am

Chayalle wrote:

Of course.
But, let's not pretend that this isn't a nisayon for OP and her son.
Posts like 'he should man up and go to work', and 'why should others support him while he learns' have no place here.
(I know you didn't post anything like that, was just giving examples.)

little neshamala

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 12:04 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

Youre right its not my first time hearing about it, but whenever I heard of it I lumped it together with all the other craziness out there, such as only going through with the shidduch if there is yichus, what kind of tablecloths do they use, do they stack china, etc...

This is the first time im actually hearing of it presented so earnestly and seriously in a thread that is pages long, with people just nodding like yup, this is normal. It may be done, but its not normal. You are valueing a transient "thing" as a valid consideration for a couple's success in marriage. Let that sink in.

Basically...if the girl and the boy agree on every single thing, their priorities aline, their opinions aline, their spending habits aline, they share the same goals and dreams and vision of a home, they are clicking and connecting emotionally and becoming friends and finishing each others sentances and they have everything going for them to IH set them up for a beautiful marriage and bayis neeman b'yisroel, but there is no money-so now its not a good shidduch?
Or this shidduch wouldnt even be give the opportunity to start, you dont even allow them to date and find out, if there is no money?
I dont care how "done" it is, realize how crazy this sounds

I dated in the right wing world, not all that long ago. My husband was a serious learner from a great family and they didnt look for money (I had none). My mother in law focused on the important things, as did my husband.

amother

Apple

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 12:13 pm

I really dont understand why the COUPLE hasnt talked about this prior to engagement. What were thay does when they were dating?? This was half of what we talked about lifestyle we wanted, money and jobs in the future, etc.
I will say I was in a similar situation to OP. Both our parents are well off (by no means wealthy though) and my parents always said they would help support. I had a low income job but was willing to go back to school or get a better paying job if needed. My father always said he could help with like 1k a month. My in laws were not into supporting at all. My husband was learning but did have a job on the side, but would have liked to start off just learning. We thought we had it all figured out. Well come to engagement and marriage and my father never ended up giving us anything. We were both very hurt (I have since then mostly cut off my father for other reasons) but we knew we would have married each other regardless. We did our best to not be resentful (I kmow my husband struggled in the begining) and moved forward never expecting anything.
Now after being married many years, my husband now works part time and is in kollel part time, I have a good paying job and turns out my in laws who always said they wouldnt support, give us more money in gifts each year then my parents said they would support. If your son really wants to marry this girl regardless, they can work it out. But a serious conversation needs to be had between the couple 1st, and then the mechutanim. This needs to happen now though and do no more planning or anything until these conversations are had.