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WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 2:13 am
amother Bluebonnet wrote:
Please take a step back and read what you wrote. Then think about it for a good long minute. What you are saying that the first and most important thing when looking for a shidduch is money. Not the person, not the character, not the middos. What you care most about is how much money the other set of parents is going to give to the kids.

Doesn't this highlight how messed up our system is??!!


The first and most important thing everyone is looking for is personal happiness. It may involve many things for many people. Clarifying expectations before dating hurts the least possible number of people
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 4:38 am
LovesHashem wrote:
There's a problem when we tell our kids there's only one way to be frum.


This should be bolded, embroidered, and framed. YES.
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 6:17 am
Rappel wrote:
This should be bolded, embroidered, and framed. YES.


If you embroidered and framed it, I'd buy it, Rappel😉!
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amother
Starflower


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 6:31 am
Op, I think you should send the couple to a financial coach for a session or two. Let the coach spell out exactly what their life will be by her working part time and him learning. They’ll also learn valuable lessons. I’ve been in your kids shoes. I was told we’d be supported and that lasted exactly 1 month. Dh had to go out to work and I worked. It was really hard we couldn’t even afford pizza. Today bh we own a home in Brooklyn. Having gone thru tough times I truly believe it helped me understand and appreciate money better. Today kids see everything on social media or WhatsApp and it all looks so glamorous they don’t really it’s usually facade
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 7:45 am
Seems like a facade who knows what the girls side is dealing with but still has to keep up appearances.

We met to discuss our concerns for keeping a budget.

Within the money amount they are able to make it through a month without any extras.

I guess this all should have been discussed from the beginning 😕 🤷
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 7:59 am
amother OP wrote:
Seems like a facade who knows what the girls side is dealing with but still has to keep up appearances.

We met to discuss our concerns for keeping a budget.

Within the money amount they are able to make it through a month without any extras.

I guess this all should have been discussed from the beginning 😕 🤷


It's interesting - I used to live in yeshiva area in Lakewood, and I knew alot of couples who were being supported, had well-to-do parents....most of them worked, you know why? For the extras. Most couples being supported aren't being given Daddy's credit card with unlimited spending built in.

I don't know what dreams you and your son had, but if they can make it thru the month, that's generous support. If they need more than that, both of them (I should bold that) can do jobs on the side to make up the shortfall (and it will build responsibility and accountability in the couple, which is a good thing.)
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:00 am
So they are being supported but not the amount you had expected/assumed? How large is the gap?
They specified a time frame for said commitment?
They plan to add as the family grows IY"H?
How does your son feel about the plan?
Is this their first child getting married?

I am sure you thought of all these questions and addressed them. Hope all goes well.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:01 am
amother Bluebonnet wrote:
Of course it is the system. Don't we teach all of our kids that the kollel lifestyle is the ideal one? Doesn't our shidduch system revolve around parents being able to provide support?

Now that doesn't mean there are those among us who have their heads properly screwed on and know that they themselves must figure out their lives and not anyone else. But one can't deny that there are a host of others who come out of this system with their heads NOT screwed on right, and feel entitled to their parents' support, government support and society's support.


No actually.

There are systems within the systems. I for one have never taught my kids that there is one ideal, and certainly not one that revolves around parental support. (FTR - The Kollel ideal started by R' Aharon revolved around ultra simple living. Not remotely related to what you see by some people in Lakewood today. I still know people who live really simply, BTW.)

Sure, there are a host of people who buy into the system you describe, but it certainly isn't THE system. If you think it is, I am totally offended at being marginalized here.
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amother
Daphne


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:25 am
amother OP wrote:
Seems like a facade who knows what the girls side is dealing with but still has to keep up appearances.

We met to discuss our concerns for keeping a budget.

Within the money amount they are able to make it through a month without any extras.

I guess this all should have been discussed from the beginning 😕 🤷

So they are supporting after all? Well that’s a twist. Good for them.
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amother
Foxglove


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:29 am
amother Daphne wrote:
So they are supporting after all? Well that’s a twist. Good for them.

They were supporting from the very beginning, just not as much as OP had expected.
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amother
Daphne


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:32 am
amother Foxglove wrote:
They were supporting from the very beginning, just not as much as OP had expected.
Wow I didn’t realize that at all. From the way op was talking I assumed they expected the new couple to support themselves from the beginning, which is totally unreasonable. But she thinks it’s not enough? That’s not her place at this stage in the game. They will manage like everyone else.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:35 am
amother Foxglove wrote:
They were supporting from the very beginning, just not as much as OP had expected.


And OP did not expect to have to contribute as well.

I have a sibling who fully supports her DD/SIL living in Israel/Kollel, but on a simple scale. 1-bedroom small apartment (and yes, she has a toddler) and not on a grand scale (does not include unlimited visits to local steakhouses.)

There has been no end to the krechtzing from the mechutanim, who do not contribute to the support at all, about my sibling's "stinginess" and "lack of generosity" and total shock "you aren't going to fly them in for our Simcha?!"
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amother
Foxglove


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:36 am
amother Daphne wrote:
Wow I didn’t realize that at all. From the way op was talking I assumed they expected the new couple to support themselves from the beginning, which is totally unreasonable. But she thinks it’s not enough? That’s not her place at this stage in the game. They will manage like everyone else.

Don't blame you, it's buried on page 6

Quote:
we can only provide a certain amount not nearly enough and her parents are offering a similar amount we're able to provide
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:41 am
We knew we would help just didn't expect to give as much as we're going to have to support - as our income is already low. we ourselves also won't have any room for extras... but what can you do we're giving more than her side is to let them live.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:44 am
amother OP wrote:
We knew we would help just didn't expect to give as much as we're going to have to support - as our income is already low. we ourselves also won't have any room for extras... but what can you do we're giving more than her side is to let them live.


I grew up with wealthy paternal grandparents, but my mother's parents who were not wealthy were the ones always giving and helping and doing for us. Interestingly my DH grew up with same.

You might say it's more natural to give to a daughter, but my experiences in life have taught me that one should not assume that wealthy=generous. (and when it is, it often comes with strings attached.)
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amother
Bluebonnet


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:54 am
amother Wheat wrote:
Maybe the problem is that there is a mistake here? 2 mistakes actually.

1) this is not a burden, it's a privilege. Albeit a privilege that not everyone could or should allow themselves but it's a privilege.
2) It's not about her son not wanting to work. It's about him wanting to learn. From your post it sounds like he's a lazy good for nothing who just wants to lie back and let people pay his bills.



A privilege is something few people have. So teaching our kids that having this 'privilege' is the most ideal way (or only frum way) removes the definition of privilege.

It is is about her son wanting someone else to make a comfortable life for him while he's learning.
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amother
Bluebonnet


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 8:59 am
Chayalle wrote:
No actually.

There are systems within the systems. I for one have never taught my kids that there is one ideal, and certainly not one that revolves around parental support. (FTR - The Kollel ideal started by R' Aharon revolved around ultra simple living. Not remotely related to what you see by some people in Lakewood today. I still know people who live really simply, BTW.)

Sure, there are a host of people who buy into the system you describe, but it certainly isn't THE system. If you think it is, I am totally offended at being marginalized here.


True - but society as a whole is not differentiating the nuances and our kids are not being taught properly. If the parents give over the right message to the kids, then they end up in the right sub-system. But our education and shidduch systems doesn't work with the right subsystem and sets up all these expectations and entitlements.

Don't feel marginalized. You're the one doing it right. Unfortunately, your subsystem is not the larger majority & it ends up falling under the umbrella of the larger system. When we refer to the issues the larger system creates, we aren't talking about those in your kind of sub-system. I know it's painting everyone with one big brush, but there is the implied understanding its not referring to those who are doing it right.
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amother
Hibiscus


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:01 am
amother Bluebonnet wrote:
True - but society as a whole is not differentiating the nuances and our kids are not being taught properly. If the parents give over the right message to the kids, then they end up in the right sub-system. But our education and shidduch systems doesn't work with the right subsystem and sets up all these expectations and entitlements.

Don't feel marginalized. You're the one doing it right. Unfortunately, your subsystem is not the larger majority & it ends up falling under the umbrella of the larger system. When we refer to the issues the larger system creates, we aren't talking about those in your kind of sub-system. I know it's painting everyone with one big brush, but there is the implied understanding its not referring to those who are doing it right.


It’s not just this- it’s the general level of materialism that is contributing.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:04 am
Op or someone else, can someone remind me how long chosson wants to learn?

I think the approach is different if his dream was to learn in ey for 1 to 5 years verses if he planned to learn "forever".

Boy needs to sit with a mentor and/or therapist to do some soul searching.

Contemplating why he chose his kallah can also help shed some light on what his true life goals are.

And also, why no trust of the kallah that she can do what she said and not be resentful. Speak things through with her too.

Also, if you just found out about the no support it might feel much worse than it is. Give it a week or two to settle, have the chosson and kallah spend time together. Things might feel much better with a bit of time.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:05 am
amother Bluebonnet wrote:
Of course it is! If someone truly wants to learn, they'll figure out how to make it work with little money too. What people are looking for IS money, so they can live comfortably while they're learning. They're looking for money, because they don't want to deal with the challenges that comes along with learning. In other words, they want the good part, and want someone else to deal with the bad part.

So tell yourself whatever floats your boat. But it is very much so about the money.


Torah UGedulah B'Makom Echad.

Yes, I agree with this post and have posted about this many times. What they really are looking for is an easy, stress-free life. And in the younger generation, some are even really not living up to the Torah ideals they claim to have - they want all the Gashmiyus, and sometimes (often), this negates the Torah life.
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