S/o a school's perspective

amother

Steel

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 2:32 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

So you're saying that it would have been roses and sunshine if your brother had gone to public school?

My son currently is in public school because the Jewish schools can't provide for him. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Or maybe I would, because my worst enemy are the teachers unions and I want their children to suffer like mine is so that they can be motivated to finally change the system.

Sometimes there isn't a perfect solution for a child, and we all manage the best we can in the environment we have. We make the choice that is the best of the worst, and that's all we can do.

Not at all! They kept him in school to avoid public school but it doesn't mean they met his needs. I imagine that if we had lived in the tristate area with the incredible amount of Jewish schools that there are, he likely would have been kicked out of school and my parents would have been forced to choose another option that maybe actually would have been equipped for him.

My point is, it doesn't benefit anyone to have the attitude of "How dare a school not accept this child?" "How dare they not take responsibility for this child's well being?" Because they really can't and it doesn't help to force them to keep a child that they can't be the best fit for.

amother

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 2:34 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I totally understand everything you're saying. And I hear the dilemma.

But.

Girls hurting other girls are beyond rare. Girls hurting themselves is far more likely. And if you truly care about the girl herself, then why is it the solution never to accept the girl into any school?

To give a poor analogy, let's bring it into the family. Yes, one child in a family can upset the balance of the whole. It's not ideal, it causes stress and reduces attention for the other kids. Yes, wouldn't it be better if the whole family were healthy and strong and perfect? Of course! But that's not what life is about, and I'm convinced that the surge in mental illness, autism, learning disabilities, and other issues amongst us is to bring home how defenseless these children are.

You can be all NIMBY until it happens to you. And then you need support.

We are a family. For better or worse. We have children in our large, BH family that aren't perfect. And we all have to learn how to live with it, how to cope with it, how to manage it, and how to navigate it. Is it messy and imperfect? Yes. But we're family.

I am trying to understand your position so that I can try to respond. Are you advocating for schools to include such children?

If so, I understand what you are saying, but I was trying to offer an inside view of how it sometimes plays out.

Also, it may be true that physical violence is less common among girls, but emotional abuse, unhealthy relationships, self-harm, and eating disorders are unfortunately more prevalent than you might realize. Self-harming behavior and eating disorders are also "catchy" and therefore do affect the girls around them.

amother

Anemone

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 2:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

I think this is just perpetuating the stigma and shame that surrounds eating disorders. I struggled with an ED in high school. I also had top marks, followed every rule, and was a kind and caring friend. Everyone has a struggle in life. The ED was my struggle then. I hate to think what would have happened to me had my BY school kicked me out.

amother

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 2:59 pm

amother Anemone wrote:

I am so sorry if I in any way gave you the feeling that I am saying that a girl who struggles with an eating disorder should be kicked out of school Chas veshalom! I was specifically talking about girls who have several issues which are not takeb care of and are therefore harmful to themselves and others in a way that is unsafe.

If anything, there is a special quality and maturity that develops in those girls who are struggling with something and dealing with it. They are way more developed than their peers. (I identify myself with them in some ways that I don't want to go into further here)

amother

Hunter

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 3:16 pm

amother Fern wrote:

Because the parents of these troubled kids are in denial and think their kids are too good for such a school and would never place them there.

Because sometimes, that school actually would be bad for the kid. Sometimes, neither school fits the bill and there are major sacrifices in both and parents pick the one that's the better of the two options. And they realize it might be a major problem as opposed to a minor one, but all indications at the time point to more minor. So they do their best.

The same things that happen when this kid goes to a regular scchool, with others possibly learning their behaviors, happens the other way too- you send your kid to the other school and they learn all the negative things from the kids there. Sometimes it's necessary, and you do everything possible to protect your child and you do it. Sometimes, it's not necessary with the right support, so you do everything to have them in a better environment. And sometimes those supports fall apart. Tachlis, a decision can be the better one for the kid and a worse one for the school. And that's hard.

imorethanamother

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 3:24 pm

amother OP wrote:

You don't have to respond. I understand your point, which is that we can't knee jerk blame someone else for everything.

I think that - a tiny bit - as a principal, you're saying that you would really prefer to keep all these kinds of kids far away from your school for the good of the whole, and that you resent the askanim who interfere and then don't help out when things don't go well. And I understand your position, because you're in a business. And you want your business to have a good reputation, and your salary depends on it. And so you're a bit nogeiah bedavar, and that's fine. We all understand.

I'm really do understand the good of the whole mentality. Our Torah seems to imply we are way better off by sending people away. I don't know what's right, but it seems that it's not a simple thing to isolate everyone who doesn't fit the mold.

amother

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 3:35 pm

amother Hunter wrote:

OP, I'd appreciate your perspon when the kid themself doesn't show a real issue, but the school is very worried about the family or has had or knows of difficulties with the parents. What are your thoughts on schools deciding not to take the kid so as not to have to deal with the family, and/or the possible future effects on the kid? Think, if their brother is OTD and at risk, or if mom is known to be exceedingly pushy.

This really is an entirely different topic and deserves a separate thread. The way my school is structured (don't want to include too many identifying details) and because I am from the general studies department I don't really have to make these decisions. But I have watched the process from up close and it is gut wrenching from both sides.

I realize this sounds like a cop out answer, but it's the truth of how it works in my school. I don't think I would have taken a job that included being involved in the acceptance process. I wouldn't be able to deal with it.

amother

Fri, Dec 09 2022, 3:59 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

This would be a good example of how sometimes the written word falls short of expressing what you are really trying to convey. So much of what you are assuming here doesn't really hold true for me personally (and I wasn't trying to talk about myself personally anyway. I wanted to give a small glimpse into what sometimes happens behind the scenes)

What I was trying to say was that sometimes when a story explodes, people's first reaction is to assume that the people involved didn't do all they could to prevent it from happening. When really they were put in a position that they weren't equipped to deal with to begin with and then when they try to help beyond their capabilities, they are blamed regardless.

This is not about making money (my actual salary makes a comment like that comical) or wishing that such students would be kept far away (like I wrote I have a bit of a background myself). It is about giving a bit of insight to the other side.

amother

Papayawhip

Sat, Dec 10 2022, 11:46 am

And then there's people like me, and other I know who wanted and were willing to get help, trying therapy, and get past our struggles but legally our parents won't consent to us having therapy - and the school doesn't even want to try and help.

I can't imagine where I'd be if I was put into public school. And I am in touch with all those classmates who dealt with my issues and I pushed myself onto them emotionally inappropriately, and harmed them - they're all okay and doing well now.

10 years out of high school we all have gone to therapy and are so much better and more aware people. Yes they suffered because of me not knowing and realizing what I was doing was inappropriate. But we are all destined to suffer to some degree.

Putting a bunch of misfits in a school with other misfits will never help them learn to interact in a socially normal environment.

amother

DarkMagenta

Sat, Dec 10 2022, 1:04 pm

Thank you OP!

As a parent of a child harmed terribly by another teen "with a background".
My son went to high school, was doing really well - until he wasn't.
It turned out that one of the boys was using him to do all kinds of things he didn't dare do himself (my son is a little too naive) including using my son's MP3 player to save all kinds of films he would be kicked out for. My son took the rap and got kicked out. Before you say, oh please you're just defending your son, my son clearly hadn't watched the stuff, he didn't even know what it was (the school finally realized this as well.) He was just doing his friend a favor because his friend had no space on his own memory card.

When we told the school what was really going on, their response was that they knew this kid had a complicated background but they couldn't say no to the pressure from the askanim.

Thank you.
Apart from the extensive therapy with it's costs, apart from the terrible effect on my son's self esteem, yidishkeit and trust in other people, this boy is still in the school. Likely found himself another scapegoat.

For myself, my son is doing very well in his new school, with a lot of support. But he isn't the innocent child he used to be. I don't know if he'll ever get back to where he was.

Askanim, please, do the world a favor. Check into a situation thoroughly. Don't push a school to take a child unless you would be comfortable allowing that child to be your child's friend or the school is equipped to deal with what may come up.

This is dinei nefashos!!!!

amother

Pansy

Sat, Dec 10 2022, 5:30 pm

OP, it is interesting to hear the school's/principal's perspective. I have some honest questions, it would be great to hear your side:

- You indicate that if you kick the girl out, it is a problem because then people will say that the school kicked someone out. Why is this a problem? If you have a girl who is causing harm to others or creating an unsafe environment, even if no one else knows, you are doing the right thing. So why does it matter if people say the school kicked someone out? And either way, isn't that better than even one child or parent saying that the school allowed someone to be in an unsafe position or be harmed at their school?

- If you know there are going to be problems and you are under tremendous pressure, I get that. But why don't schools create a contract with specific terms up front? E.g., girl can be at the school, but if she fails to take her medicine regularly for over a week, skips weekly therapy more than twice a month, exhibits signs of violence, has drugs around other girls, etc., then girl will be permanently removed from the school. Or some variation thereof. Why aren't the terms laid out beforehand? All schools have rules and grounds for expulsion, why can't contracts be made if you are accepting someone against your better judgement, to protect the school and for the girl's sake as well?

- Why is it allowed halachically to keep a child at a school if they are harming others? Do principals consult halachic authorities on the matter (not ones who pushed you to accept the girl obviously)? Do all rabbis just say that keeping one Jewish child in a Jewish school is worth sacrificing the well-being of 400 other kids?

- Has anyone considered the ramifications to the problem girl herself about being allowed to stay without real help or consequences? I know the consequences of kicking a girl out of the last possible frum school is problematic. But when I was at school, there was a problem girl and she was allowed to stay. Did not have real consequences to her behavior. Clearly did not get the help or support she needed from the school (I can't comment on whether they tried or not, maybe they did a ton, but she clearly needed more and it was beyond the school's ability to give it). It didn't matter that she was kept in a frum environment. Her class was miserable. The school was miserable. And most importantly the problem girl herself was miserable and suffering. But all that she learned was that her actions must be ok because there were insignificant consequences and no one would help her and today she is not frum, a drug addict, violent, and has broken the law multiple times (none of these were the case while she was at school, but why behave well as an adult if as a child you can get away with whatever you want and no one really has your back and the religious system just made you miserable). The girl clearly needed more help than the school could give (again, maybe not the school's fault), but in that scenario, the girl may really have been better off elsewhere. The school did her a disservice by keeping her when they couldn't help her, and the extra years of being in a frum environment only pushed her further away from religion. And let's not start on the effects of keeping her on the rest of the girls (me included). But even just for her, keeping her may have been a worse option rather than a better one.