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Double take- mutually exclusive
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2023, 8:43 pm
https://mishpacha.us1.list-man.....d573d
Thoughts?
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2023, 8:50 pm
Ughh this was such a hard one!
I felt so bad for the mother but I also understand the organization.
It would have been nice if the organization could have offered some of the services where they don’t overlap but I guess that may not be practical.
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amother
Clear


 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2023, 8:59 pm
The organizations should have worked out a mutual policy over these matters. It's not right to have a blanket policy that has such potential for harm.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 4:29 am
Im glad this is fiction and I hope it's not true in real life.

What this organization is saying is that only those families that only need the "extras" can ger even more extras. (Because all they provide is extras....and "experr" medical advice.)

Every single example can be easily rectified. You can ask "did you go on a trip in the past x months from any org?" Are you already getting gifts?.
Same thing with medical advice - though there the org might just have to step back to let each family do their own thing but still be available if they want other advice from them.
Big brothr/sister - maybe they don't need because their extended family is taking on that role.

The example of the family of 12....who used their services but declined their medical advice.....this is their example of why they should stop helping sufferering families in criisis with OTHER UNRELATED services?!? like trips and gifts? EGO!

My mother was sick throughout HS and died my Sr year. This was 25+ years ago and oot, before these orgs existed and we were connected to NONE but we were zoche to amazing family and community that went to work for us. I still remember the neighbor who took organizing childcare for my family on herself! The elderly couple that came 2x a week.That what I thought these orgs are, organized community.
[* edit, even 25 years ago the bikur cholim orgs in my oot city and the cities my mother went to for treatment were amazing with food, visitors, accommodations, liasons!]

Bh I have not had to know from these bad things in the years since and don't know how these orgs work... but boy am I triggered......

I hope really this is just an author and is not real.
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amother
Papayawhip


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 4:46 am
Yes, that part about "taking advice from more than one place" sounded really wrong. Families should be respected as intelligent enough to make their own medical decisions and decide where to pursue advice.
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amother
Lemonlime


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 5:01 am
amother Papayawhip wrote:
Yes, that part about "taking advice from more than one place" sounded really wrong. Families should be respected as intelligent enough to make their own medical decisions and decide where to pursue advice.


Yep. We had an organization like this have to change hands because the former head insisted people stick to his medical guidance.
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amother
Sage


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 5:01 am
This has to be fiction.
The organizations should establish themselves to do totally separate things.
Families with sick parents need meals AND pampering and treats. Of course one organization can't do all of that.
I like the suggestion above- "have you or your kids been on a retreat within the past X months?"
"Have your kids been to a shabbaton/event/trip etc. In the past 4 months?"

And things like that.
There's no reason why a family who gets help with babysitting for younger kids can't also get a Big Sister for their 13 year old.

Of course if tzedakah A has a chol hamoed concert on Monday, the same kids shouldn't go to the circus with tzedakah B the very next day.
There's definitely enough families for more than one chesed organization and everyone can be vetted properly.
The medical advice thing should be separate. You shouldn't be required to accept someone's medical advice as a condition for getting shabbat treats for your kids.
I really didn't like that part.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 5:28 am
Boy did this trigger me!!!!!! Wow
It’s hard to explain the desperation ppl are in when a parent is incapacitated by illness. And these rules! Seems like some of the ppl make these rules never say on the other side of the fence. Everyone should try to help everyone
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amother
Amber


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 6:00 am
amother Purple wrote:
Boy did this trigger me!!!!!! Wow
It’s hard to explain the desperation ppl are in when a parent is incapacitated by illness. And these rules! Seems like some of the ppl make these rules never say on the other side of the fence. Everyone should try to help everyone


I know. So triggered. I really need someone to come on this board and reassure me this is just the author's imagination.

When a parent is sick the children are often COMPLETELY PARENTLESS.
The sick parent is incapacitated and the healthy parent is attending to them. Daily. The healthy parent may go with the sick parent to treatment oot and the kids are parcelled out or someone comes to the house.

Parnosa is a big problem when a parent is sick.
My father had to cut back on his business alot to take care of my mother when she was sick. She was a sahm so we weren't missing her income but my father used to say " an efficient wife is half a salary". He said without her at the helm our expenses went through the roof even though there were barely any clothes being bought (no one to go shopping) and certainly no vacations- who had energy, health or time.
he had significant savings and he told me we drained it the A LOT during those years because his income was halved.

I could go on.

The example of the family of 12 especially upset me. I know this is fiction, but why pick that as your example?
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 6:13 am
amother Amber wrote:
I know. So triggered. I really need someone to come on this board and reassure me this is just the author's imagination.

When a parent is sick the children are often COMPLETELY PARENTLESS.
The sick parent is incapacitated and the healthy parent is attending to them. Daily. The healthy parent may go with the sick parent to treatment oot and the kids are parcelled out or someone comes to the house.

Parnosa is a big problem when a parent is sick.
My father had to cut back on his business alot to take care of my mother when she was sick. She was a sahm so we weren't missing her income but my father used to say " an efficient wife is half a salary". He said without her at the helm our expenses went through the roof even though there were barely any clothes being bought (no one to go shopping) and certainly no vacations- who had energy, health or time.
he had significant savings and he told me we drained it the A LOT during those years because his income was halved.

I could go on.

The example of the family of 12 especially upset me. I know this is fiction, but why pick that as your example?

I am the sick parent. For months and months my kids had nothing from me besides fear. They were grossed out if I had the koach to hug them. They needed and still need every single thing every single organization offers. Every toy, trip and nosh everything. It’s so important and so appreciated . And yes I’m out of work …..
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amother
Amber


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 6:31 am
amother Purple wrote:
I am the sick parent. For months and months my kids had nothing from me besides fear. They were grossed out if I had the koach to hug them. They needed and still need every single thing every single organization offers. Every toy, trip and nosh everything. It’s so important and so appreciated . And yes I’m out of work …..


Refuah shelaima!!

Im sure you know but I'll say it again that even when your children won't hug you and avoid you YOU ARE THEIR EVERYTHING AND THEY LOVE YOU SO SO MUCH!!!!!

(Apologies if I'm out of line. This article seriously triggered me and my head is back in the 1990s)
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emi1812




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:01 am
That rich donor seemed really out of touch when he said, “You have to understand, I’ve given significant donations to both organizations, with the understanding that many people will get helped — not that the same people should get double the piece of the pie,” and “So donors like to give some here, some there, and know that they’re having an impact on many people, in many different ways. Why should the same family take it all?”

It’s obvious that he (and those other donors he is speaking for) don’t fully understand the actual needs of these families. They don’t seem to realize the sheer absurdity of insisting on families giving up the essential daily help they’re receiving (such as suppers and babysitters) in order to go on a once a year trip or get weekly shabbos treats 🙄

It’s not “double dipping” to get different kinds of help from various organizations. I agree, the organizations could easily vet people for a trip or ask if they are already receiving gifts/treats etc. in order to use their resources for those families who aren’t already getting the same (keyword: same) benefits elsewhere.

Overgeneralizing to mean “all or any type of benefits” on the basis of the examples they gave (most of which were not relevant) causes more harm than any perceived benefit.

It’s a false equivalency to compare someone who’s eschewing life saving medical intervention for ineffective holistic treatments or hopping from one trip to another to a family who’s asking to join a trip but is already receiving suppers/babysitting from another organization.
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amother
Pistachio


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:23 am
Does anyone else find it ironic that this story came out this week? IYKYK
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boysrus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:33 am
amother Pistachio wrote:
Does anyone else find it ironic that this story came out this week? IYKYK


can you pleas explain the connection?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:36 am
emi1812 wrote:
That rich donor seemed really out of touch when he said, “You have to understand, I’ve given significant donations to both organizations, with the understanding that many people will get helped — not that the same people should get double the piece of the pie,” and “So donors like to give some here, some there, and know that they’re having an impact on many people, in many different ways. Why should the same family take it all?”

It’s obvious that he (and those other donors he is speaking for) don’t fully understand the actual needs of these families. They don’t seem to realize the sheer absurdity of insisting on families giving up the essential daily help they’re receiving (such as suppers and babysitters) in order to go on a once a year trip or get weekly shabbos treats 🙄

It’s not “double dipping” to get different kinds of help from various organizations. I agree, the organizations could easily vet people for a trip or ask if they are already receiving gifts/treats etc. in order to use their resources for those families who aren’t already getting the same (keyword: same) benefits elsewhere.

Overgeneralizing to mean “all or any type of benefits” on the basis of the examples they gave (most of which were not relevant) causes more harm than any perceived benefit.

It’s a false equivalency to compare someone who’s eschewing life saving medical intervention for ineffective holistic treatments or hopping from one trip to another to a family who’s asking to join a trip but is already receiving suppers/babysitting from another organization.

Very well said

Thank you all for your comments. I was so upset by this story and you all expressed my feelings much better than I was able to pinpoint...
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:37 am
boysrus wrote:
can you pleas explain the connection?


This week is midwinter for a bunch of schools? Or something else?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:38 am
amother Pistachio wrote:
Does anyone else find it ironic that this story came out this week? IYKYK

I also found it ironic!
I guess we’ll see each other soon lol
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:39 am
mha3484 wrote:
This week is midwinter for a bunch of schools? Or something else?

A wonderful organization is having a weekend retreat this week for families that have a parent or child with a serious illness- mostly cancer patients.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 8:51 am
My father was sick and then passed away in my teenage hood, but many of these organizations weren't so available.

What struck me in the article is the power imbalance or the potential for taking advantage. The families that were benefitting from the midwinter getaways, big sister, Shabbos treats are the families that either have plenty of money for takeout and babysitting, have plenty of family help, insist on family and community help to the detriment of others, or push their kids to do too much.

It occurred to me that if the mother would have continued to rely on her parents and siblings (even though it was too much for them) then she would be eligible for this Midwinter thing.
But because she saw it was too much for her mother, she turned to an organization, she became disqualified for pampering from a different organization.
Similarly, if she would have had millions in a trust fund, she can pay for a housekeeper, meals, etc, and now she's eligible for the extras.
Or she can insist her 10 year old babysit and cook supper every night.

It just seems to me a toxic and dangerous situation, in which vulnerable people are trying to figure out which needs can be met elsewhere without disqualifying themselves.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2023, 9:04 am
keym wrote:
My father was sick and then passed away in my teenage hood, but many of these organizations weren't so available.

What struck me in the article is the power imbalance or the potential for taking advantage. The families that were benefitting from the midwinter getaways, big sister, Shabbos treats are the families that either have plenty of money for takeout and babysitting, have plenty of family help, insist on family and community help to the detriment of others, or push their kids to do too much.

It occurred to me that if the mother would have continued to rely on her parents and siblings (even though it was too much for them) then she would be eligible for this Midwinter thing.
But because she saw it was too much for her mother, she turned to an organization, she became disqualified for pampering from a different organization.
Similarly, if she would have had millions in a trust fund, she can pay for a housekeeper, meals, etc, and now she's eligible for the extras.
Or she can insist her 10 year old babysit and cook supper every night.

It just seems to me a toxic and dangerous situation, in which vulnerable people are trying to figure out which needs can be met elsewhere without disqualifying themselves.


This is such a good point that I didn't even think of. Also for a lot of us who have complicated family situations and generally struggle with feeling unsupported this is like salt in the wound at a time where people should not have to experience that. I am grateful that I get a lot of help with certain things and the organizations where I live all work together and I have never gotten turned down for one group helping me.
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