Does money belong to the husband?

amother

White

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:08 pm

A wife has the option of releasing her husband from the obligation to support her in favor of all the money she earns belonging to herself.

In our day and age, I don’t understand why every couple doesn’t do this? You can each halachically own money and then pool it and make joint decisions instead of him doling his money out to you.

Mommyg8

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:45 pm

amother Hosta wrote:

Halachikly speaking, I believe that any money brought in by the wife belongs to the husband. However it’s also Halacha that the husband provide the wife with all her needs.

I'm only quoting Chayalle because she's said it a few times here on this site (I haven't personslly asked him):

Chayalle wrote that R Dovid Feinstein tzl paskened otherwise. He paskened that women nowadays do keep the money that they earn. I'm pretty sure R Dovid knew halachah ....

newinbp

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:45 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

Because this has all the hallmarks of financial abuse

I just think it's hard to discern from a small snapshot of someone's life and to call it abuse is a bit ahead of things in my opinion. It also depends how frum you are I think, I had never seen this before but where I live now I've seen a lady go ask her husband for cash, or tell me she'll pay when her husband gives her money, and she was totally fine with it, it's a bit cultural I gathered.

amother

Papayawhip

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:53 pm

newinbp wrote:

How can someone suggest abuse from one statement??

Because this is financial abuse any way you slice it. Abuse is not an unknown imaginary unicorn. When someone posts certain actions we know it's abuse. Now some people don't realize that they are acting that way and can change when it's pointed out. But the actions are abusive nonetheless.

amother

White

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I’ve heard in the name of R’Dovid Feinstein that there is a certain (limited amount) that a wife would earn for her husband. If she earns more than she is obligated to, the money would be hers. Hence, women earning large salaries of today would be entitled to keep most of the money they earn.

Don’t know how that works with mah shekanah isha, kanah ba’alah, though.

amother

Cantaloupe

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:55 pm

amother OP wrote:

I work hard and make some money. Obviously most of it goes into our shared bank account and is for my husband and family to use.

But I do like to put away some money for myself so I can spend on some personal stuff without giving an exact report to my husband after every purchase.

My husband is very upset and keeps saying that in “normal” families, and according to Halacha, the money belongs to the husband and whenever I need anything I can ask him for money and he’ll always give me. He also offered to give me “pocket money”.

Maybe I’m wrong but I’m mad. I’m not his daughter who has to ask for money whenever I want to buy something. It makes me feel like a kid, like his object, he is my boss and I’m his employee or something.

Is this Halacha? I won’t follow it.
Is this truly the norm?

Can't speak to your specific community, but as a whole, it is not the norm.

A couple is a team. Control is shared unless specifically agreed upon by BOTH. A couple has equal access to ALL funds and they work together to decide on a budget, and what is an acceptable discretionary amount for both.

Both should have debit cards and equal access for withdrawals. NEITHER one should need to ask for permission to spend within the agreed upon amounts. Discussions are warranted for larger purchases or going over budget.

Obviously, this gets changed up if either one has an unhealthy relationship with money. But OP, if that's not the case here, you need to stand your ground and insist upon being treated as an equal.

amother

Cantaloupe

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:58 pm

newinbp wrote:

Any spouse FORCED to ask for money is abuse. Simple as that. If its a voluntary setup, that's a different story.

Doesn't sound like OP is agreeable to be put into this position. In that case, this is financial abuse. Simple as that.

Mommyg8

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:59 pm

amother White wrote:

I'm quoting Chayalle, I don't have personal knowledge.

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....80855

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....rt=40

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....57902

(And I'm pretty sure R Dovid tzl was aware of what you quoted).

amother

Marigold

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:25 pm

amother OP wrote:

The short answer is yes it belongs to your husband. That doesn’t mean you need to ask him for every dollar. You can agree on a plan that works for both of you. For example, you check in with him only if the purchase is over x amount of dollars.
We have a joint account so if it’s a regular daily/weakly/monthly/seasonal thing I just swipe the card because I know my husband wouldn’t mind. If it’s something out of the ordinary like I decide I want to donate a generous amount of tzedakah or I want to sign up for a course, I call him to discuss it.
It’s funny I just finished listening to Leah Richeimers weekly class on Torah Anytime. The topic she discussed the past few weeks is very much related to this issue. She really changed my marriage for the better and now I’m addicted to her clases lol.

amother

White

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

Tell him to check the tenaim that was signed at your wedding, where it says “veyishletu benechaseihem shavim beshavim” which means equal financial control.

Crookshanks

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:39 pm

I've posted this a few times before, and I'll happily post it as many times as I need to. According to my (yeshivish) Lakewood Rav, who in turn is taking this from R' Moshe Feinstein, any money that a woman makes is hers to keep. This applies even more so when the woman is supporting her family (and her husband is in kollel or school).
The money only belongs to him if he is the sole breadwinner. Even in that case, they need to have a financial arrangement they are both comfortable with. OP is not happy with her husband's opinions on this topic, and his actions are financially abusive. His wife is his equal partner, not his child or ward.

newinbp

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:54 pm

amother Papayawhip wrote:

I hear you

newinbp

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:55 pm

amother Cantaloupe wrote:

I hear you. Well OP you got lots of pointers I hope you are finding your way.

amother

Birch

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:01 pm

amother Fuchsia wrote:

Afaik it's not the norm for couples to act this way, and it's strange that it bothers him so much. I would suspect that he's abusive. Is he a very controlling type?

It is neither fair nor appropriate to "suspect him of being abusive" because he wants to do something that is actually within halacha. Can't Believe It

The halacha is that money the wife earns belongs to the husband, because the responsibility to provide money for the household is also on the husband.

As an earlier poster said, that is not the only arrangement. The wife can choose to keep her money and to split all household bills in half. (Although the first arrangement is the default arrangement and the recommended one.)

There is definitely room for the husband to be flexible here and let things stay at status quo. If he asked a Rav, perhaps the Rav would recommend that he do just that.

But to play devil's advocate here:
What if dh was skimming off his paycheck before pooling his money with his wife's, without even discussing it with her first?
I wonder how many ladies here would be totally ok with that.

OP and her husband need to communicate and decide upon a setup that works for both of them. Perhaps also speak to a Rav for guidance (not just straight halacha), as an earlier poster had suggested.

amother

Birch

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:03 pm

newinbp wrote:

I agree. Calling it abuse is totally inappropriate.

amother

Birch

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:25 pm

I have to add, I'm still figuring out this issue in my own household. I'm not 100% comfortable with my husband's and my setup either. I need to speak to a Rav or a therapist or a marriage coach myself. I actually feel similar to OP - thanks, OP for articulating my feelings better than I did.

I think the idea in the default halachik setup is that the wife feel taken care of, and that she trust her husband to give her what she needs. In the ideal scenario, the husband would feel obligated and responsible and manly and empowered by providing abundantly for his wife - which includes managing their joint earnings competently.
The wife - if she trusts that her husband is competent and that he wants to give her as much as he possibly can - will feel taken care of and secure.

It's easy to say, but there's a lot of fear for me personally in jumping to such an arrangement.
So right now I'm somewhere in the middle. And part of my current arrangement does not sit well with me. ...I definitely need to work this out.

amother

Birch

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:26 pm

amother Marigold wrote:

Cool. I didn't know Leah Richheimer was on Torah Anytime. Thanks for the tip!

amother

White

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:46 pm

amother Birch wrote:

I think the idea in the default halachik setup is that the wife feel taken care of, and that she trust her husband to give her what she needs. In the ideal scenario, the husband would feel obligated and responsible and manly and empowered by providing abundantly for his wife - which includes managing their joint earnings competently.
The wife - if she trusts that her husband is competent and that he wants to give her as much as he possibly can - will feel taken care of and secure.
.

This may be the idea behind the halachic setup, but it would not work for me. I don’t want to be taken care of. (That’s for children and pets.) I’m a mature, responsible adult, who can B”H take care of myself (and others too). I don’t want anyone giving to me. I want to earn my own living and provide for myself (and my family). I’m very glad there are halachic ways out of this setup.