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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim
Can someone explain the beginning of the Purim story?
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:02 pm
Ok so I'm reading it in the megillah and I'm thinking, it is so strange. The king wants to call the queen and show off her n*ked body? Like was that a normal thing?
And then she refuses and therefore gets killed??
I know that being a woman was really rough those times, but was this kind of treatment the norm??
And why is Vashti considered evil for refusing this?
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:13 pm
She had intention originally to cause znus as well if not for the tail ...

She maybe wansnt supposed to get killed but she insulted achashverosh and he gave the case to the advisors and Haman gave the advice she should get killed (which logically was really foolish)
This is actually part of the hashgacha

The reason she deserved this was
1 achashverosh used the basis hamikdash keilim
2 she stripped Jewish girls/women and made them work on Shabbos..

One thing which is interesting is that we don't see anywhere in the megillah that she got killed... (I mean it would be very awkward if the servants killed her na* ked)
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amother
Moccasin


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:13 pm
It was a power play. She was the descendant of the Babylonian royal family, but Achashveirosh climbed his way to the throne. He wanted to prove to the entire empire that he was the boss of her.
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:14 pm
I see it as back then even a queen has very little power. In the pshat she does nothing evil.
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b.chadash




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:15 pm
Chazal say that Vashti would not have had a problem complying. She was very immoral and very vain. She only refused for cosmetic reasons.

She was killed for defying a direct order of the king, and yes that was a very standard thing in those days, even up until recent times. One did not have the option to disobey the king. I don't think it had so much to do with her being a woman- any individual who would dare to disobey the king would be put to death.

Vashti is not considered evil for refusing this. She was evil for other reasons. Among them, she used to torment the Jewish girls by making them work on shabbos and unclothed.


Last edited by b.chadash on Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:16 pm
amother Aqua wrote:
She had intention originally to cause znus as well if not for the tail ...

She maybe wansnt supposed to get killed but she insulted achashverosh and he gave the case to the advisors and Haman gave the advice she should get killed (which logically was really foolish)
This is actually part of the hashgacha

The reason she deserved this was
1 achashverosh used the basis hamikdash keilim
2 she stripped Jewish girls/women and made them work on Shabbos..

One thing which is interesting is that we don't see anywhere in the megillah that she got killed... (I mean it would be very awkward if the servants killed her na* ked)


Right, so I've heard about the part that she stripped Jewish women. That, of course, is terrible.
But this part in itself makes no sense to me, like actually good on her that she didn't listen to the king. I mean he wishes to show off his wife's body and she is evil if she doesn't comply with that?

And what does achashverosh using keilim have to do with her?
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:19 pm
b.chadash wrote:
Chazal say that Vashti would not have had a problem complying. She was very immoral and very vain. She only refused for cosmetic reasons.

She was killed for defying a direct order of the king, and yes that was a very standard thing in those days, even up until recent times. One did not have the option to disobey the king. I don't think it had so much to do with her being a woman- any individual who would dare to disobey the king would be put to death.

Vashti is not considered evil for refusing this. She was evil for other reasons. Ong them she used to torment the Jewish girls by making them work on shabbos and unclothed.


Ok, and even if she refused for cosmetic reasons... then I say good on her.

It seems the way it is written in the megillah that it was a bad thing that Vashti did.

I hear about the part about not being considered evil due to that but the way I always learned was that this was part of it - she refused to obey the king.
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amother
NeonOrange


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:20 pm
She was Wickedand didn’t mind showing off nude
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:26 pm
amother OP wrote:
Right, so I've heard about the part that she stripped Jewish women. That, of course, is terrible.
But this part in itself makes no sense to me, like actually good on her that she didn't listen to the king. I mean he wishes to show off his wife's body and she is evil if she doesn't comply with that?

And what does achashverosh using keilim have to do with her?

I meant to say she insulted him by saying you stable boy etc . Which at that point he was super mad... I read somewhere that that is what the whole case was about. Maybe she was embarrassed and should not be executed and maybe she refused the kings orders. Achashverosh was mad so he gave the case to his advisors to decide and Hashem made Haman give his advice to kill her ( with the intention of his daughter marrying achashverosh)
Had Vashti said straight up I have a tail or I have leprosy, I am more than sure they wouldn't have executed her...(but obviously she would not say that...)

But again I wonder if she was actually killed .. doesn't say anywhere..
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amother
Currant


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:27 pm
The midrash says that Vashti refused, not out of modesty but because she had either grown a tail or had broken out in a horrendous rash, take your pick. Maybe both. It also says that she tortured Jewish slave girls by forcing them to work on Shabbos in the nude, and her fate was a fitting retribution. BTW nowhere does the Megillah say she was killed. That's Midrash. All the Mikra says is she was deposed and forbidden to ever appear before the king, iow banished.

You're looking at the story with 21st century Western eyes, but it occurred in a decadent pagan Eastern empire that was headed, moreover, by an easily-led potentate who made hasty decisions first and asked questions later . Any student of history knows that modesty was not a value in the ancient world. Greeks competed nude in sports arenas, many sculptures and paintings in the ancient world featured partial and full nudes, images of fertility gods and goddesses are not only always nude but feature grossly exaggerated identifying organs, and many ancient pagan religions celebrated rites featuring both nudity and public copulation, often to guarantee fertility. Slaves in ancient Egypt were nude, and even the royalty often wore garments so sheer they served as decoration rather than as covering. So nudity was not the sort of humiliation it would be to a modern-day Westerner, and certainly not the sort of humiliation it would be to someone whose religion places an emphasis on modesty.

An awful lot of powerful men today like to show off their wives' pulchritude, and most of those wives seem quite content to appear in clothes that reveal rather than conceal their assets.
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jeweled




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:01 pm
There is an opinion that the whole 7 day party was for this moment when Achashveirosh orders Vashti to appear naked. He gathers everyone for this one moment to legitimize his kingdom by having her subjugated to him. When she refused his whole monarchy is at stake so it's a national issue vs a domestic issue. He therefore asks his political cabinet what to do. Remember in previous times monarchs married other monarchs for political reasons to ensure land and power.
Also remember that the megillah was written when Achashveirosh was still alive. So the authors had to be very careful not to make him look bad. So it would also make sense in this context for placing the blame on Vashti for not showing up .
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b.chadash




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:25 pm
amother OP wrote:
Ok, and even if she refused for cosmetic reasons... then I say good on her.

It seems the way it is written in the megillah that it was a bad thing that Vashti did.

I hear about the part about not being considered evil due to that but the way I always learned was that this was part of it - she refused to obey the king.


I'm not sure why you assume that the megilla infers that she was wicked due to her disobeying the king. This may be the way you mistakenly understood it, but I doubt that's the way you always learned it. There is no such inference from the megilla or Chazal. You may have learned that she was wicked for other reasons and therefore she was punished like this. But this in and of itself was not an example of her wickedness.

And I agree that she should be applauded for refusing to come naked. Except for the minor fact that we know that her reason for disobeying had nothing to do with modesty or even self respect.


Last edited by b.chadash on Wed, Mar 08 2023, 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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b.chadash




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:28 pm
amother Aqua wrote:
I meant to say she insulted him by saying you stable boy etc . Which at that point he was super mad... I read somewhere that that is what the whole case was about. Maybe she was embarrassed and should not be executed and maybe she refused the kings orders. Achashverosh was mad so he gave the case to his advisors to decide and Hashem made Haman give his advice to kill her ( with the intention of his daughter marrying achashverosh)
Had Vashti said straight up I have a tail or I have leprosy, I am more than sure they wouldn't have executed her...(but obviously she would not say that...)

But again I wonder if she was actually killed .. doesn't say anywhere..


I have heard an opinion many years ago that she wasn't executed but rather exiled to a foreign land. Not sure if it's a legitimate opinion though.
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amother
NeonPurple


 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:31 pm
She would have gladly shown you up naked.
It seems from Midrash that she has done it before.
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Raindropsonrose




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:32 pm
To be precise, the pshat doesn’t say she needed to be naked, just that she needed to come “b’keter malchut” which Chazal explain to mean wearing *only* a royal crown. But the plain meaning of the text is that the king asked her to present herself, and she refused.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2023, 2:15 am
amother OP wrote:
Ok so I'm reading it in the megillah and I'm thinking, it is so strange. The king wants to call the queen and show off her n*ked body? Like was that a normal thing?
And then she refuses and therefore gets killed??

I never heard this before? What is the source ?
Did vashti know this would be done?
This isn't the prettiest way to present???
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2023, 2:29 am
amother Firebrick wrote:
I never heard this before? What is the source ?
Did vashti know this would be done?
This isn't the prettiest way to present???

They were arguing whose women are the prettiest. The argument against Vashti was that of course she looked beautiful, anyone would in royal garb. A woman who is beautiful with nothing at all boasts true beauty.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2023, 2:41 am
You can't ask for an explanation on megillah and then say you don't want explanation that's not written in megillah.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2023, 5:36 am
The Megillah ends with Komi Vekiblu. That is our accepting of torah shebaal peh. If you will only look in the text itself, you will hardly get the story.
Read “Let My Nation Live”, it covers the majority of explanations, giving you a fuller story. I also recommend the Malbim Esther. The Malbim gives the political circumstances and decisions.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:11 am
amother Currant wrote:
The midrash says that Vashti refused, not out of modesty but because she had either grown a tail or had broken out in a horrendous rash, take your pick. Maybe both. It also says that she tortured Jewish slave girls by forcing them to work on Shabbos in the nude, and her fate was a fitting retribution. BTW nowhere does the Megillah say she was killed. That's Midrash. All the Mikra says is she was deposed and forbidden to ever appear before the king, iow banished.

You're looking at the story with 21st century Western eyes, but it occurred in a decadent pagan Eastern empire that was headed, moreover, by an easily-led potentate who made hasty decisions first and asked questions later . Any student of history knows that modesty was not a value in the ancient world. Greeks competed nude in sports arenas, many sculptures and paintings in the ancient world featured partial and full nudes, images of fertility gods and goddesses are not only always nude but feature grossly exaggerated identifying organs, and many ancient pagan religions celebrated rites featuring both nudity and public copulation, often to guarantee fertility. Slaves in ancient Egypt were nude, and even the royalty often wore garments so sheer they served as decoration rather than as covering. So nudity was not the sort of humiliation it would be to a modern-day Westerner, and certainly not the sort of humiliation it would be to someone whose religion places an emphasis on modesty.

An awful lot of powerful men today like to show off their wives' pulchritude, and most of those wives seem quite content to appear in clothes that reveal rather than conceal their assets.


I want to add, that even in the 21st century outside of the Jewish circles, it’s very common to take pictures in very partial clothing. Think bikinis, or very minimal tops and bottoms. Many people in the secular world find it to be acceptable to expose the majority or their bodies
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