Halacha Headlines re: simchas YT vs. hand shmuira

watergirl

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 9:22 am

I thought this episode of halacha headlines was so intertesting when the topic moved from medication on Pesach to the discussion of Simchas Yom Tov. The question posed was this - if finances are very tight, and you have to sacrifice meat on Pesach or a new dress for your wife in order to have only hand shmurah, what should you do? Of the three rabbis, two of them (all HIGHLY respected, big names) said to use machine shmura for the last six days in order to purchase meat/new dress.

Our own (chassidish) rav told us the same thing - our finances are tight. He told us to do hand shmura for the first two days and machine shmura for the last six, and to use the money we would have spent on hand shmura for simchas YT, however that looks for us.

In light of threads last week (which come up every year) where women are understandably upset when their neighbors get luxury foods and magazines and coupons for clothing and shoes and they make "too much" so they don't but really need a helping hand...

I wanted to share this, because I believe people don't think to ask their own rav when they have a financial need a basic question: can we use machine shmura? Ask your rav before forgoing your simchas yom tov in order to buy hand shmura for all eight days.

https://open.spotify.com/episo.....19ypE

amother

Razzmatazz

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 11:42 am

There's a school of thought that machine matzah is superior because machines don't make mistakes while people do. Though hand matzah has a certain quaint traditional charm that machine matzah lacks, I see no reason to beggar my family for the sake of quant traditional charm.

Chayalle

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 11:49 am

It reminds me of the famous story of a Chassid who went to the Satmar Rebbe and complained that his wife doesn't want to go to great lengths to make everything for Pesach from scratch, and she wants to buy some products that are ready made. The Rebbe asked the Chassid if he makes his own matzos and wine. He said he didn't. To which the Rebbe answered - those things that you are responsible for, you buy ready made, but that which your wife has to prepare, you don't?!

And while this story isn't about finances, it does remind us that these things are Chumrahs. Very admirable, but there is a time and place for them....and a time to ask a sheilah and adapt as necessary.

amother

Charcoal

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 2:33 pm

amother Razzmatazz wrote:

The main advantage of hand shmurah is that it was made for the sake of the mitzvah. The people working on it are saying "Lesheim Matzos Mitzvah" as they make the matzah. That's not something a machine can do.

If I asked our Rav if I could buy machine matzah so we can afford meat... he would give me money for the meat. Not everyone holds that it's just a nice thing.

amother

Hibiscus

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 2:36 pm

amother Charcoal wrote:

We hold machine shmura is of higher quality. We hold kashrus more important than saying Leshaim Mitzvah.

And the Rav says it when he pushes the button to start the machine. It's harder to have it in mind the whole time vs 1 second Very Happy

scruffy

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 3:12 pm

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

By certain chasidim we don’t even eat machine matzah after pesach….. it’s not something I would ever give up. I gladly cut out a new dress for myself…

Why wouldn't you eat it after Pesach?

watergirl

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 3:13 pm

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

By certain chasidim we don’t even eat machine matzah after pesach….. it’s not something I would ever give up. I gladly cut out a new dress for myself…

The point is to ask a shailah of your own rav if there is a financial issue and to go from there.

scruffy

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 3:17 pm

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

Chometz she-ovar alav hapesach

This is so interesting to me.

We hold that machine matza is fine to use. I assumed that people who don't eat it still consider it kosher l'Pesach, but only eat hand matza because it's more mehudar (there are differences in opinion in which is more mehudar as you can see upthread).

B'shaas hadchak, if there was no hand matza available, you would not have any matza at the seder? (Obviously this is a totally hypothetical situation)

amother

NeonPink

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 3:19 pm

amother Charcoal wrote:

I used to have a group of women co-workers during my night job. During the day, from isru chag sukkos until two weeks before pesach, they worked at a matza bakery in Brooklyn, I am intentionally not mentioning which one, but they told me the following practice is common, and two of the women had previously worked in other bakeries and said the same thing about this:
The employees are men and women at the same time, around the same table. The owner/boss has them standing man/women/man/women, etc. because if not, they all talk and chat while making the matza. This is the only way to keep them quiet. As for kavanah... I can't tell you what is in their minds and hearts, only Hashem knows that. But no, they were not all frum and yes, they lied about it to get the job (and laughed about that fact at work at night).

So this is what I think some mean when they say the machine is more mehuddar than hand.

scruffy

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 3:21 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

This is why people get chabura matza - so they know who baked it

amother

Obsidian

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 6:53 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

this is very fascinating, considering that a good food establishment hechsher will not take ANYONE's
claim as being Shomer Shabos. They check references; they follow the person on shul on Shabos. They investigate.
In my experience, in our company NO ONE ever got away with not being Shmiras Shabos, no matter how many references they lined up...
so something here is very off with that particular hashgacha!

doodlesmom

Tue, Mar 21 2023, 7:08 pm

There were chassidish rebbes, like the Divrei Chaim who held that machine matzah is like chometz.

There were others like the ksav Sofer who felt machine matzah was the better option.

If you follow any of the above, then it’s not some quaint traditional charm, it’s actually the only way to eat matzah.

So do not make away either side!

And no for those who hold it’s like chometz, it will never be okay to eat machine for simchas yom tov, the rave I’ll actually just provide hand matzah if necessary.