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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling -> Seminary Info
How comfortable are you sending your daughter to Israel sem
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amother
Arcticblue


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 10:33 am
I can't say I loved seminary. I have a bit of social anxiety and the social piece was hard. But going to seminary gave me a love of eretz yisroel that I don't think I could have gotten by just visiting. When I got married the only reason I was willing to move to eretz yisroel was because I had gone to sem there. I lived in Israel for a few years after I was married. For giving me a love of eretz yisroel I think seminary was worth it
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 10:34 am
amother Tulip wrote:
People you personally heard from who didn't enjoy the year, were they girls who just came back or women looking back 5+ y?
What are the reasons girls told your SIL they didn't enjoy their year?


Different reasons.
Like, one neighbor who told me she never really wanted to go, but her parents wouldn't hear of that (bad for shidduchim). She cried on the plane, and was miserable the first few months. After that she was OK, but nothing major, she would have come right back home if she could. Stuck the year out.

I was close friends with a girl in seminary who did not love it, was there due to parental and school pressure combination. We talked about it all the time.

I personally loved seminary. I would go to seminary now if I could LOL! (Kidding. Love my family.)
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amother
Chestnut


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 10:38 am
amother Tulip wrote:
Can you share their experiences?
Everyone I spoke to enjoyed their year. Not everything was perfect, but no one regretted going. I only hear about such experiences here and from women here looking back years ago.


There were a lot of little things I heard from girls, that combined just made Sem in Israel lose a lot of its appeal.
Off the top of my head (these are all regualr BY type girls),
-I didnt like a lot of stories of "escapades" they had gotten themselves into. Some were unsafe, some simply silly-the type that very bored teens would do, just to make the day interesting. Like being in camp for too long.
-some codependence issues between staff and students. Highly emotional relationships, getting too enmeshed and unable to see the situation objectively.
-too much obsession over the chilled Rabbis who taught them. Nothing overtly inappropriate happened and no lines were crossed, but the way they spoke of them, the casual way they got to know them over the year, sharing lots of personal information and being helped and guided by them for so many months straight and seeing them on a daily basis, the way the girls "miss him sooo much" rubbed me the wrong way. Almost like a crush.
-girls in the dorm becoming way too close over the year, and experimenting physically. Heard this more than once.
-some hashkafa that was taught was quite extreme and not beneficial. In a highschool setting, or any local setting, its easier and more typical to hear from your kid and to correct it.
-some girls got in to great seminaries but then just chilled all year instead of applying themselves and studying because they "were done". I dont approve of girls wasting time for months on end; it's not a good middah to get used to. Better to do something that will keep you productive and working towards something.
-some girls overall just "liked" it. They didnt love it, but they said it was nice enough, but long. (One girl made sure I wouldnt tell her parents this because they spent so much money and she wanted them to feel it was worth it).

Overall I just keep getting the idea that its not so glamorous for everybody as it always seemed, and that there are some concerns to be mindful of.

I specifically get uncomfortable about the things I posted that are hard for the parent to pick up on from so far away, so they cant intervene with their good judgement.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 10:41 am
Very well said Chestnut.
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 10:59 am
amother Chestnut wrote:
There were a lot of little things I heard from girls, that combined just made Sem in Israel lose a lot of its appeal.
Off the top of my head (these are all regualr BY type girls),
-I didnt like a lot of stories of "escapades" they had gotten themselves into. Some were unsafe, some simply silly-the type that very bored teens would do, just to make the day interesting. Like being in camp for too long.
-some codependence issues between staff and students. Highly emotional relationships, getting too enmeshed and unable to see the situation objectively.
-too much obsession over the chilled Rabbis who taught them. Nothing overtly inappropriate happened and no lines were crossed, but the way they spoke of them, the casual way they got to know them over the year, sharing lots of personal information and being helped and guided by them for so many months straight and seeing them on a daily basis, the way the girls "miss him sooo much" rubbed me the wrong way. Almost like a crush.
-girls in the dorm becoming way too close over the year, and experimenting physically. Heard this more than once.
-some hashkafa that was taught was quite extreme and not beneficial. In a highschool setting, or any local setting, its easier and more typical to hear from your kid and to correct it.
-some girls got in to great seminaries but then just chilled all year instead of applying themselves and studying because they "were done". I dont approve of girls wasting time for months on end; it's not a good middah to get used to. Better to do something that will keep you productive and working towards something.
-some girls overall just "liked" it. They didnt love it, but they said it was nice enough, but long. (One girl made sure I wouldnt tell her parents this because they spent so much money and she wanted them to feel it was worth it).

Overall I just keep getting the idea that its not so glamorous for everybody as it always seemed, and that there are some concerns to be mindful of.

I specifically get uncomfortable about the things I posted that are hard for the parent to pick up on from so far away, so they cant intervene with their good judgement.

Thank you for the points. Yes, all these are my concerns (besides not applying herself, not worried about that).
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 11:01 am
Chayalle wrote:
Different reasons.
Like, one neighbor who told me she never really wanted to go, but her parents wouldn't hear of that (bad for shidduchim). She cried on the plane, and was miserable the first few months. After that she was OK, but nothing major, she would have come right back home if she could. Stuck the year out.

I was close friends with a girl in seminary who did not love it, was there due to parental and school pressure combination. We talked about it all the time.

I personally loved seminary. I would go to seminary now if I could LOL! (Kidding. Love my family.)

Ok, so both didn't want to go to begin with, which is a different ballgame.
I'm more concerned about Chestnut's points.
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 11:09 am
amother Nasturtium wrote:
Note- it's possible to be glad you went to seminary and to have benefitted from it, and still not enjoyed it, especially overall (Hand raised...)

It's also possible for a young woman to say one thing one day and something else the next. Or to really end up not liking their school but get so much out of being in the land, or the opposite.

How is the bold possible? Not enjoying being there for a year would cancel out and positives for me. Maybe a decade later I'd see and appreciate some benefits, I guess.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 11:14 am
amother Tulip wrote:
Ok, so both didn't want to go to begin with, which is a different ballgame.
I'm more concerned about Chestnut's points.


Yes, for sure!

I remember when I talked to my SIL about seminaries, she mentioned that many of the girls who end up loving it were the ones who were gung-ho about going. And those who were more neutral, or didn't want to go at all, are the ones that end up neutral or not liking. And of course there are those who switch - who didn't want to go and love it, or who were dying to go and don't end up with a great experience.

When I looked into seminaries for my daughter, one of my first and most basic requirements was that I would be able to entrust the staff with the care (emotional, spiritual, physical) of my daughter. And quite a few seminaries did not meet this. I wonder how many parents think of this when sending their young daughters halfway around the world.

One of my siblings was in a seminary in EY where she fell and badly broke her ankle on a tiyul. The seminary sent her to xrays without an accompanying staff member. No one there followed up about her situation, and she was a quieter girl who didn't make waves....my parents were not happy with the care she received (she ended up with follow-up care over Pesach when they brought her home, and some PT the following summer) but more than that, they were upset over the seminaries attitude to her, their lack of concern or responsibility.

A friend of mine told me her daughter's friend had appendicitis - and her seminary sent her to the hospital alone, and no staff member visited.

Beyond this - I would need to know if the seminary principal creates an environment that is healthy, no major elitism, healthy and appropriate boundaries, etc.....this should be a major concern for every parent.
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amother
Chestnut


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 11:23 am
Chayalle wrote:

Beyond this - I would need to know if the seminary principal creates an environment that is healthy, no major elitism, healthy and appropriate boundaries, etc.....this should be a major concern for every parent.


This is very important.
The problem is its not always so simple to ascertain. Often, these unhealthy environments are very subtly unhealthy, and the girls who are affected are, by the very nature of the beast, completely unaware that the situation is unhealthy. These girls will often swear up and down by their principal/teacher/whomever even if they are actually experiencing unhealthy behavior.
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mikayla18




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 11:33 am
I hated seminary. I'm a very social person, easily make friends and had family in Israel (also I love Israel so much I would move there tomorrow) and yet, my seminary was a terrible experience. Always putting down the girls (me) "for your own good" constantly demoralizing me and telling me I was a bad person for wearing nailpolish on my toe nails (a million percent true statement not exaggerated) I was accused of ridiculous things like having a boyfriend any time I asked for late curfew (past 10 pm and we were ALLOWED to request late curfew). I went a few years ago (less than 10 but more than 3) I wouldn't want my daughters to be subjected to a year of authoritarian rules. But if she chooses to go to seminary when the time comes, I'll be more than happy for her to go (just not where I went, I hope it shuts down). I think 18 is a bit old for schools to keep such an authoritarian hand on kids and I would prefer my daughter go to a michlalah type of program (still seminary but college-esque in that they treat them like adults)
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 12:29 pm
I went to seminary. I did not enjoy it. Combination of factors. Some unhealthy friendships, some very foreign hashkafa being promoted as law, some emotional/ spiritual manipulation that seems built in as an inspiring part of the curriculum.
As a mechaneches who’s very involved with her students during and after sem, I think sem is a harmless experience for most girls. They’ll have fun, or enjoy, or gain from just opening their minds to other ways of life that they see in EY.
For some girls, it’s a life changing experience in the best way. Especially if something in their home or community situation is holding them back or very difficult for them, this year can be a year when they’re free to fly.
For others, it’s life changing in a disastrous way. They are unprepared for the freedom and lack of oversight, get swept up into poor decision making and end up doing things they never would have done at home.
I’ve seen this to be true over the span of many years.
It’s a decision, a big one, financially and spiritually, and it should be a decision each girl makes with help from her parents and other trusted adults.
Saying it’s all bad or all good is oversimplification.
It has the potential to be both.
For most girls, it’s a nice experience, albeit a very expensive one…but it’s not a necessity.
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amother
Snowdrop


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 12:42 pm
Fact is, seminary is hyped up. Girls are told in advance how they will feel or should feel about their year in seminary, and they are in for a surprise once they are there. And they know it costs a lot and they feel guilty when it's not what it's made out to be. I personally was surprised to feel like I was in 13th grade. I messed up a lot, for example, not realizing that in different communities people take in shabbos at different times, and I didn't know enough back then to ask. Basic things like that.
I know someone in sem now who regrets going, regrets the money her parents spent, didn't realize it would take so long to adjust.

I would not send my daughter to Israel for an entire year. I don't see the point. A trip to visit and see holy places- wonderful. To live there an entire year in a foreign country? No thank you.
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amother
Oatmeal


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 12:43 pm
Rappel wrote:
"how can my daughter experience Israel in a spiritual manner?"

Maybe seminary. Maybe family. Maybe working on a religious farm. Maybe sheirut leumi in a girl's school or hospital. Maybe religious college. Many, many options.

Do people have any details about working on religious farms as an alternative to Sem? Thank you.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 12:57 pm
amother OP wrote:
after the recent increase of awareness (from what I'm hearing) that seminary may not be the best place for our girls after all. (podcasts, imamother threads...)

There are no "our girls."
This is an individual, not a collective decision.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 2:28 pm
I personally think it’s ok for seminary girls to have some kosher fun their year in Israel. Especially if they won’t go to college and will get married very shortly after and start having kids.
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 3:00 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Yes, for sure!

I remember when I talked to my SIL about seminaries, she mentioned that many of the girls who end up loving it were the ones who were gung-ho about going. And those who were more neutral, or didn't want to go at all, are the ones that end up neutral or not liking. And of course there are those who switch - who didn't want to go and love it, or who were dying to go and don't end up with a great experience.

When I looked into seminaries for my daughter, one of my first and most basic requirements was that I would be able to entrust the staff with the care (emotional, spiritual, physical) of my daughter. And quite a few seminaries did not meet this. I wonder how many parents think of this when sending their young daughters halfway around the world.

Beyond this - I would need to know if the seminary principal creates an environment that is healthy, no major elitism, healthy and appropriate boundaries, etc.....this should be a major concern for every parent.


Ok, so the first point basically means there's no way to know who'll love it and who won't Wink

I don't think there's an objective way to know about the environment unless you hear a few people saying same (bad) things or know someone who had a bad experience (like your sibling or the girl with appendix). Even if everyone you know tells you the environment is healthy, there are appropriate boundaries, etc, doesn't mean nothing unhealthy happens with some. Just like with abuse by people in power - when you hear of an accusation, many wait to hear if there are more people coming out and many still don't believe cause "Rabbi A is such an amazing person who helped so many".
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 3:01 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
I personally think it’s ok for seminary girls to have some kosher fun their year in Israel. Especially if they won’t go to college and will get married very shortly after and start having kids.

Anyone said some kosher fun isn't ok? The problem is when this is the main reason for going there.
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 3:05 pm
amother Aquamarine wrote:
I went to seminary. I did not enjoy it. Combination of factors. Some unhealthy friendships, some very foreign hashkafa being promoted as law, some emotional/ spiritual manipulation that seems built in as an inspiring part of the curriculum.
As a mechaneches who’s very involved with her students during and after sem, I think sem is a harmless experience for most girls. They’ll have fun, or enjoy, or gain from just opening their minds to other ways of life that they see in EY.
For some girls, it’s a life changing experience in the best way. Especially if something in their home or community situation is holding them back or very difficult for them, this year can be a year when they’re free to fly.
For others, it’s life changing in a disastrous way. They are unprepared for the freedom and lack of oversight, get swept up into poor decision making and end up doing things they never would have done at home.
I’ve seen this to be true over the span of many years.
It’s a decision, a big one, financially and spiritually, and it should be a decision each girl makes with help from her parents and other trusted adults.
Saying it’s all bad or all good is oversimplification.
It has the potential to be both.
For most girls, it’s a nice experience, albeit a very expensive one…but it’s not a necessity.

What do you mean by the bold? An ideal of marrying a learner and to live like that for as long as possible?
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 3:21 pm
amother Tulip wrote:
What do you mean by the bold? An ideal of marrying a learner and to live like that for as long as possible?


I think it means a focus on this in the curriculum, in many subjects across the board, to the exclusion of mentioning and finding a place for other kinds of Torah lifestyles.

I went to a "top name-brand" seminary and didn't want my daughter to go there, even though the school suggested it as a possibility. Those were the messages I got. That to do anything else is 2nd best. It was very damaging and confusing, especially because I was far from home and couldn't really discuss it or get a counter-message. It took awhile to realize that although I initially bought into it as a "good girl" it wasn't really for me. I married someone who learned for 6 months and then went to work. And we are very frum, thank you very much Smile

Iy'h, my daughter will be going next year to someplace else that is a little more balanced. I hope she has a different experience. It is a huge financial outlay, but she wants to go and it is my pleasure to give this gift to her.
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amother
Tulip


 

Post Wed, Mar 22 2023, 3:47 pm
amother Cerulean wrote:
I think it means a focus on this in the curriculum, in many subjects across the board, to the exclusion of mentioning and finding a place for other kinds of Torah lifestyles.

I went to a "top name-brand" seminary and didn't want my daughter to go there, even though the school suggested it as a possibility. Those were the messages I got. That to do anything else is 2nd best. It was very damaging and confusing, especially because I was far from home and couldn't really discuss it or get a counter-message. It took awhile to realize that although I initially bought into it as a "good girl" it wasn't really for me. I married someone who learned for 6 months and then went to work. And we are very frum, thank you very much Smile

Iy'h, my daughter will be going next year to someplace else that is a little more balanced. I hope she has a different experience. It is a huge financial outlay, but she wants to go and it is my pleasure to give this gift to her.

Isn't it the message all BY seminaries give over, though (besides probably Meohr? Not sure which other ones if any)
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