Afula Aliyah | Imamother

Rappel

Sun, May 14 2023, 1:46 am

Hmmm .... You're all making me think again about an idea I had.

I think this could work as an Aliyah plan, but I no longer have the American contacts to make it happen.

Basically: have a large group of olim land in yishuvim - ideally, several groups nearby each other - and let that be their landing pad, without any commitment to stay in the community long term.

The pluses of yishuvim:
*Tons of communal support - everything you would want to raise kids happily.
*Friendly environment
*Pretty areas

The pluses of group aliyah:
*Municipal assistance with beaurocracy
*Organized ulpan
*Group activities
*Easy transition, local language when you're feeling emotional, and sympathy with the others in the group
*It's easy to set up assistance programs, like job hunting, school assistance, and other things to help families acclimate.

At any time, a family can decide they want to move on from the group, but they can start with all the support they need and then decide on their direction.

amother

Slateblue

Sun, May 14 2023, 2:10 am

fiddle wrote:

I have no agenda. I have no interest in convincing Americans to come here - I just left all of them in rbs after 16 years.
My husband works from home, and we also sell bbq and sourdough from our house - so no commute. But there is a train here, and I’m sure plenty of people use it.
I personally live on a block where I am the only religious person and under 65, and couldn’t be happier. Eventually the olds will move out, and young’s move in. That’s the cycle of life.
We moved here because I found a house and schools and just picked up and went.
Living in bet shemesh showed me how stuck people get there and really never let themselves acclimate into Israeli society which causes many miserable children and miserable marriages.
It was a fake sense of belonging to something that never was. We tried multiple shuls over the years, and never found anything. The schools are really not great once the kids hit middle school, and even so - it changed so much that it’s so American and chareidi - I may as well have lived in Lakewood.
We had no real friends, just acquaintances over the years and our kids had nobody. My family is all there still, and that’s what I left. That was tough. But they all visit me here.
Life in the north is calm. It’s peaceful. It’s quiet. People are pleasant and not going crazy because you parked in their spot by mistake. The streets aren’t congested, other than Friday pickup - which is still not as bad as bet shemesh ever was. That place is a concrete jungle of most people on medication because they’re miserable and can’t deal with life. The children are a mess because they’re not Israeli nor American and they are all just lost.
I’m not speaking for everyone. But a tremendous percentage.
Obviously for those making aliyah, it’s a great cushion, but leave after a year and don’t get too comfortable. Israel isn’t for everyone, but it’s the only place I’d ever want to be.

Just FYI from your first two lines anyone in Bet Shemesh knows who you are.

Regardless - I've been here for 11 years, a child of aliyah and I here where you are coming from. We lived in Karmiel for a year so I know what it's like to live with Israelis. It's also not so simple.

Currently we live in an area in RBS where my whole block is Israeli. I've had trouble making good friends with Israelis and Americans. My really good friends are from school or work.

My husband who has only been a citizen here for 3 years is fully integrating. He picked up on Hebrew from joining MDA and now he's in medical school fully in Hebrew, we run vaad bayit all in Hebrew. He has loads of Israeli friends and we have no issues acclimating.

The kids here are a mess, and the included the Israeli kids from Israelis families. It's a problem not with being American hers, but the family values and hashkafos, sending to the wrong schools, badmouthing the Chareidi system and breaking rules behind their backs etc.

The people I know who fit the standard chareidi box - their kids are doing fine. The people who moved here typical yeshivish in America with no smartphone and no internet etc - they're all fine. Their kids go to Israeli chareidi schools and they acclimate and join Israeli chareidi Shuls.

They are doing fine. Once families don't fit into neat boxes it's more complicated.

amother

Chicory

Sun, May 14 2023, 2:24 am

From what I've heard a year ago unless things changed, Givat hamoreh has a small Anglo presence, some Americans and some British but I don't think it's a real Anglo kehillah, but they do have some Anglos for support and friendship

Givat hamoreh is also much more heavy chareidi than Afula Illit if you're looking for that and if that suits you then it's more settled because there are no promises of Anglo schools or anything similar, everyone just does their best to fit into the system and to integrate into Israeli life properly. The housing prices there are also regulated by a vaad and you have to be accepted into the kehillah and follow their rules (there is a kehillah it's just not Anglo specifically) although there may be some small parts where you don't have to be accepted, I am not sure.

Hope this helps.

fiddle

Sun, May 14 2023, 2:48 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

Not hiding behind anything. Clearly. Anyone who knows my username here, probably knows who I am.

amother

Mayflower

Mon, May 15 2023, 6:33 am

amother Slateblue wrote:

I made aliya myself as a child. I can relate to the pain of finding your place. I am sorry for what you are going through.
The mess you are describing with the kids might have more to do with what the charedi community is going through right now at large and less to do with the RBS olim problem. (perhaps that is what you were saying?)
The Israeli charedi community is going through a subtle shift, many of the young parents are both working parents. many young men are no longer avrechim although they were raised with very little other values. Many young people are struggling to redefine their yidishkeit and it is a messy journey at times.
I personally think that the next generation will reap the fruit eventually but for now it might be a mess for a while.

amother

Jean

Mon, May 15 2023, 4:48 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

This is an Olim problem that is not limited to RBS or even chareidi neighborhoods. A Doctor from the five towns who lives in Efrat told me recently that the children of Olim there struggle greatly and many are off the derech. Maintaining wholesome teens as an Oleh may be the biggest challenge of Aliyah. It isn't necessary insurmountable, but as you point out it is not simple.

amother

Daylily

Mon, May 15 2023, 5:01 pm

amother Jean wrote:

Yes, for a teen, a sense of FULL BELONGING within a peer group, school, and community is everything. Schools and communities which are designed for Olim within Israel are essential for an Oleh teen's healthy emotional development. An Oleh will always be "the other" in an Israeli school, and society in general, unless he/she moved to Israel in very early childhood. This is true for all religious affiliations.

queen-b

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 12:17 pm

Hi, great points and questions, not offensive at all! I call Afula a hidden gem because many people have never heard of Afula before. I'm not trying to sell it, my goal is to make people aware of it's existence. I would never have even known about it except for the incentive to move here with a group. I love it here because it is so down to earth, Israelis and Americans. It reminds me a little bit of Baltimore because of it's diversity and acceptance. Within Illit, there is a mix of charedi, vishnitz, ethiopian, chiloni. In Rova Yizroel, there is also a dati leumi community. One of the ladies, came to my shabbos chabura that I do with a friend and she was telling us about the schools she sends her kids too. I go to a basketball chug in Illit with a group of charedi women and they are so cute and fun. There are lots of mehadrin restaraunts in the city. There is a pool with (limited) separate hours. A water park is opening within the next couple of weeks. There is also plans to open a small amusement park for kids. Sounds like I AM trying to "sell it," lol! For me, it's appealing because my kids are integrating into the Israeli system. There is no American vs Israeli mentality because my kids are the first english speakers in their school. It's definitely challenging but I think it will be challenging anywhere. In regards to your point on rabbinical authority, we do ask Rabbi Gold more Israel specific questions but there are a couple of rabbaim that came this past year. One is Rabbi Seagal who runs a small kollel and the other is Rabbi Kravitz from Brooklyn who is very knowledgeable and accessible that we ask our shailos to.

Last edited by queen-b on Mon, Jun 26 2023, 6:38 am; edited 1 time in total

queen-b

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 12:33 pm

amother Hydrangea wrote:

OP what are the men doing for work? Do they drive into Tel Aviv? Haifa? Working from home? Can we hear more about that and work for the women? Does Nefesh B'nefesh help with those that make Aliyah? Do they help them search for work?

Hi! In regards to work there are a few (men and women) who were able to retain their America jobs and work american hours remotely (one positive of corona). One is a handyman. I don't know anyone who is traveling to work. NBN has not been helpful. If someone is in high tech and speaks hebrew there are many more options. Afula is opening high tech companies (they have a few buildings literally with the word Tech on it) and there is a train to Haifa as well.

queen-b

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 12:40 pm

Rappel wrote:

I think it is natural and right that olim start as a group for mutual support, but then springboard off in their own directions as they get on their feet.

The place you land is almost never the place you land up. Aliyah is a growth process, and that growth usually involves change of location, affiliation, schools, or environment.

To me, your description there sounds like a successful oleh community. If they'd all stuck together, it would be a sign that they're not making it in Israel.

Well said! Each family is figuring it out for themselves. Some families are staying and some have left. Each family has their own direction and we don't feel the need to stay together as one group although I would love it if we could because it's such a special group of people!

amother

Hosta

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 1:19 pm

amother Daylily wrote:

I think this is very individual.

I moved as a teen and to a completeley Israeli Charedi community and did really well (as id the rest of my siblings). When I went to seminary - I was friends with a lot of girls who where born in RBS to olim and they had so many more struggles then I did - till today. They all married RBS boys or american guys from america and live in rbs - I married an israeli. I work in an Isralei environment - they all work in american environments. I think the next generation may have it easier - but lets see.

There where a lot of pieces that made it work for me:
- I wasnt happy where I was in the states
- We had a large extended family already in Israel
- my parents are american israelis who moved back so had a good handle on navigating the system and culture, and the balance between aligning hashkafically with the schools and knowing when to stand up to the schools and when to adjust our home to the schools rules...
- I am a strong, resilient person by nature
- I am good with languages and academic come easy

not to say that it wasn't a hard transition - but I am sure that if I would have gone to RBS and been friends with the other Olim who where struggeling, I would not have acclimated as well as I did

Reality

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 1:51 pm

amother Hosta wrote:

Your parents are Israeli. You cannot compare your situation to a fully American family making aliyah with teens. Sorry, you are comparing apples to oranges.

queen-b

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 2:41 pm

Reality wrote:

Your parents are Israeli. You cannot compare your situation to a fully American family making aliyah with teens. Sorry, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Agreed, I also thought that when I read it. It is a major advantage having parents who can navigate the system. But there are some valid points she made as well. My daughter age 16 is an all israeli high school and sadly her parents (me and my husband) are not fluent in hebrew and BH my daugher is doing amazing. Her grade is so sweet to her and makes her feel welcome. She has gone on day trips when they have off (boating in Tiveria and shopping in Yerushalym). My daughter is slowly picking up the language. She only started around Pesach time and feels very connected to her class. There is something to be said for being in an Israeli school with limited english speakers. I am hoping that she will graduate with her class and move on to an Israeli seminary (if that's the direction she wants to go).

amother

Hosta

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 2:48 pm

Reality wrote:

Your parents are Israeli. You cannot compare your situation to a fully American family making aliyah with teens. Sorry, you are comparing apples to oranges.

they are not Israeli

Dad was born in the states made aliya as a kid, moved back as a teen to live with family because the system wasn't working for him (parents and siblings stayed)
Mom was born in Israel and to american parents and moved back as a young child (5 or so)

I have met other people who have made aliya as teens to israeli communities and done well. And plenty who moved to RBS and did not. And a LOT who where BORN in RBS and struggled because of the american bubble.

my point was that aliyah is individual - and you need to really know your kids and your circumstances and make the best decision for your family.

Reality

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 2:49 pm

queen-b wrote:

And my kids picked up hebrew super fast living in RBS.

My point still stands. An Israeli family returning to Israel will have a totally different experience then a completely American family.

I am very pro-aliyah but not if people don't do their due diligence. Making aliyah with teens means you put THEIR needs first.

queen-b

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 3:07 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Mamach is a new concept. Chareidim don't consider it chareidi. They put out kol korehs about how horrible they are.

Also are you sefardi? That's a huge difference. The sefardi communities eveyhwere is in Israel are more diverse and accepting and less about chareidim and rules. But you can't put an ashkanazi kid in a sefardi school.

Yes we are sefardi so it works out well because I really like the schools, they are smaller than the ashkenazi ones.
There happens to be several ashekenazi kids in each of my kids schools (I think because of the diversity and the size) so it's definitely doable. I can understand the hesitation coming from America.
I don't know the history of mamach schools but like everything in the north it's much more laid back. It's a very accepting place. So maybe in other areas a mamach school are frowned upon but I haven't noticed any backlash here. Personally, I don't care if Israeli charedim consider mamach schools charedi. It doesn't affect me. In the mamach schools the teacher's have to have proper certification, math is taught as well as other subjects, plus all the kodesh subjects. All the teacher's are charedi (a mix of sefardi and ashkenazi moros and rebbes) and the kids get a free hot lunch:)