The most universally loathed Jewish gathering- the Vort

amother

Gladiolus

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:01 pm

amother SandyBrown wrote:

You calling them nebachs doesn't exactly help the situation. And yes, plenty of men would be very happy with the cake and soda kiddush. My husband for sure would prefer that. Not every man has to prove himself by spending money he doesn't have. How do you think their dignity truly is when they put themselves in debt to impress others? Do you think that they're feeling like a success after that? And at the end of the day honestly no one thinks better of them for it.

I am not calling them nebach, I am saying how they'd feel inside. A man who can but doesn't, doesn't feel bad, a man who has to put his finances which he probably is a little sensitive about in public on display for the community...

Really? The men would be happy to make cake and soda kiddush in shul B when everyone else in their shul does kiddush B? The men I know would either melt through the floor of embarrassment or feel at least like its not right to do that unless they ...I will make a poll.

If your saying they'd be happy to do cake and soda in shul A, that's the point of the clip, bring down the level and everyone is happy with it.

amother

Garnet

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:21 pm

amother Moccasin wrote:

You so obviously didn't read my whole post. Not only are my parents in klei kodesh and most of my extended family, but my husband WAS a rebbi/klei kodesh. So you said he should switch his profession? If you said that, it is glaring you didn't read my post and just want to scream about jealousy because you know the truth and that's how you avoid dealing with the issue at hand- by getting off topic. My husband was a rebbi and he didn't succeed. So he should have kept at it even though he was failing kids? That's how highly you regard rabbeim? They should do it just because they're jealous? Oy, I daven my children never have rabbeim like that.
If you are jealous of doctor's salaries, why not just go be a doctor? Not everyone has the brains, intellect, money for schooling, connections to be one. I am not jealous of doctors, nor rabbeim. You missed the entire point of my post. Maybe read it and focus and then you can comprehend and comment on what I stated.

But if you have a problem with reading comprehension here it is in a nutshell: If chinuch families would do things on the standards they did when I was growing up as the daughter of two klei kodesh parents, people wouldn't feel a need to keep up with them. There would be chasuv people making simple simchas (and by extension clothing, houses, yuntif.....) on a lesser scale and they wouldn't feel a need to outdo them thereby borrowing money to keep up with them since now many middle class need to pay more than they can afford for the same thing chinuch families receive discounts or freebies for. When the chashuv families do things on a grand scale, people feel like nebachs for not doing the same.
Sorry but this is not jealousy. It's called problem solving. If my husband is working twice as many hours as a rebbi during the year (and he does put in night hours as well) plus summers and can't afford to make the same level simcha, he feels like a failure. If it was as easy as "just switch professions" believe me so many would.
I agree chinuch families don't make a liveable wage especially if they are working just as a rebbi with no afternoon or summer job like working people. So organizations can help them afford what the rest of us can afford. I would be happy to give my maaser toward that. I think the question here is why does it have to be on a higher scale? (brand name shoes/clothes, sleep away camp, cleaning help, high end meat, discounts at luxury stores.... things many middle class can't afford) Then that becomes basic necessity and the bar has been raised on what is a necessity. Everyone wants to feel like they're normal. One of the reasons the clothing drive for chinuch families was started is so the kids should feel normal in top of the line outfits and not have to wear second hand clothing. So obviously it is normal to wear brand names. So what if you are middle class and can't afford that?? The message society gives is that you're not normal.

you are totally correct. I just went to an over the top simcha with every luxury possible. Both parents in chinuch- and they're on every program there is. Thats why I wont give to some tzeddakos that help rebbeim. They dont vet them- you can be a rebbi whose parents are millionares and get help from all these programs.
Please dont say that I dont know whats going on in their private lives. Some of these people are my closest friends and we share everything, no one needs to pretend. Theyre thrilled to get pesach for free, and all the other perks, why not?

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:28 pm

amother Garnet wrote:

This could be the case for the rare few rebbeim who are the children of millionaires. The vast majority of rebbeim struggle very much financially - and make simchos that are very, very low key and bare minimum. (BTW, no Rebbe's family that I know gets Pesach for free no matter how bad their financial situation is so I'm not sure what you are referring to.)

amother

NeonPurple

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:30 pm

amother Ecru wrote:

Agree with this. (wife of rebbi, and I'm a teacher too...)
But I have to say, it doesn't feel good taking incentives, vouchers etc. Its not something that rebbeim an their wives feel good about. Now that my oldest is married and trying to get enough together for a downpayment on a house, and we know we cant afford to help, well, it doesnt feel too good... and it leaves me doubting the choices we made to be in chinuch, wich is silly becasue we both have so much to offer to the children of our community.
And btw, because we are both working we earn too much for most government things like SNAP, medicaid for the adults in our famly which happens to be 4 of us right now (over21).

Why do you think you would be able to help your daughter with a down payment if you weren't in.chinuch?

My parents are not in chinuch and cannot help us with even a penny towards a down payment. DH and I are not in chinuch and we cannot afford a house. We rent. And we will definitely not be able to help our kids with down payments.

The grass isn't greener on the other side.

IRL, I actually know many chinuch parents who helped their children buy houses, and many non-chinuch parents who cannot do that.

amother

NeonPurple

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:34 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

No it is not rare at all. There are plenty of chinuch people in my family. I have neighbors and friends who are in chinuch. I go to my kids' teachers' houses on purim. The majority of them are living quite nicely.
My in-laws live on a yeshivish block with mostly chinuch and gosh you should see how their neighbors dress their kids. And somehow they can all afford to support their married children.

amother

Mimosa

Mon, May 22 2023, 3:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

That’s the point of the shiur. Put out some cake for a vort. Don’t put societal pressure to borrow or beg and spend thousands on a vort followed by thousands on the wedding followed by thousands on shabbos sheva brachos, foisting a budget appropriate only for the wealthy few on the masses of middle and lower class of our communities.

if everyone will do what is right for them and stop blaming everyone else then that would help everyone
time to grow up
own our decisions
not care about others' opinions whether true or imagined
do what we decide is right for us

(and yes we are well to do and had nice simple vorts in our home just as our kids wanted

amother

SandyBrown

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:10 pm

amother Gladiolus wrote:

You're viewing it as a man putting his finances on display. Who knows what a person's finances are. It's just a man choosing to make a reasonable/affordable simcha. Maybe he has tons of money but wants to use is wisely.

amother

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:29 pm

The shul I grew up OOT in had cake, soda and herring for both the men and the women, and a bit of shnaps to make a lechaim. The shul DH goes to now in Lakewood has the above plus kugel, cholent, several fancy types of herring for the men, and miniatures, salads, fancy cakes etc. for the women when there is a women’s kiddush as well.

Yet the kiddush in the shul I grew up in was 10 times more meaningful. There was a speech, usually speaking about the baalei simcha, niggunim, and everyone ate with kovod.

The current kiddush has no speech or niggunim, and is largely a kugel and cholent grab fest for the kids, who tend to grab anll the seating and leave the adults standing.

Its not the amount of money spent or the extravagance or variety of the spread that makes a kiddush meaningful.

amother

DarkGreen

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:35 pm

For those of you who are saying that expensive events put enormous pressure on others- I don't think it's a correct view.

I myself don't have much money. I could only afford to make basic Simchos (and sometimes struggles to even payoff those) so I can say this:

Why can't people spend the money that they earned through their blood, sweat and tears? They earned it.

As if you say that it makes others feel bad, I will quote a guest on Dovid Lichtenstein's Headlines program
"Should you stop losing weight because it'll make your chubby neighbors feel bad?"

When I was working in a preschool, I had to make sure everything was equal and fair. But that was with CHILDREN.

We are ADULTS. It's not people that need to live a simpler lifestyle, it's US (including me as well) that need to understand that we must live within our means. As adults, we should all be able to understand that we won't necessarily be able to afford what others can.

As adults, we should embrace the understanding that living within our means is a responsibility that rests with each individual, rather than expecting others to conform to a simplified lifestyle.

But if that doesn't do it for you because you want to be able to impress others, I will tell you this:
Most people nowadays aren't walking around with genuine happiness.
If you live with contentment and joy despite having little money, then people will surely be jelous of your lifestyle! They'll be jealous of your unending happiness.

That will surely impress people more than anything else. The unending happiness derived from finding contentment within ourselves holds far more potential to impress others than any lavish display of wealth.

Lastly, at your funeral, nobody will say "she had such a fancy living room and had stunning vort/simchas. There were caterers and extravagant things at her vort"

Stop making your life about materialistic things.

amother

Camellia

Mon, May 22 2023, 4:57 pm

amother Mimosa wrote:

I narrow it down to two causes.

1. This problem starts from childhood. We live in a society of conformity. Everyone gotta do the same, wear the same, have the same, and chase after the same goals. Anyone who doesn't follow suit is labeled problematic or 'different'. It's only normal that it spills over in adulthood. We can't undo an entire childhood training with a snap of your fingers.

2. We are focused on materialism and externals. We focus on clothing and what type of clothing one wears. We focus on looks, and identify ourselves through external behaviors. A fancy affair speaks to your status. A simple affair is considered to be low class (unless your wealth is already known to the community). What we provide for these young adults to get married is over the top by almost all standards in the rest of the world. Where in the world do you find that it's standard for a bride to received ~15k of jewelry, for a groom to receive expensive silverware/gifts, for a bride outfitted for the next 10 years, and for home outfitted with luxuries and extras - all provided by financially struggling parents no less, or collected via charity. How did this come to be requirements of marriage?

Then consider the simchas itself. The large # of couples, the expensive halls, the flowers, the over-the-top food, the expensive dresses, and so on. What we consider to be 'standard' is what high earners in the rest of the world consider to be their standards.

To top it all off - celebrating within your means is a concept we view to be a negative one. With all these tzedakah collections for these 'standard' simchas, and for furniture and jewelry etc., aren't we implying that everyone must rise to the same standards, and getting married with simply less is just pitiful. Don't get me wrong, the thought process behind all the tzedakah collections is a beautiful one, but what essentially we're saying that all these luxury items that we're collecting for is an absolute necessity. Right there and then we destroy the concept of getting married within your means.

amother

Camellia

Mon, May 22 2023, 5:29 pm

amother Peru wrote:

Oh sorry, so you want chinuch families to know their place and do bare bones everything because that’s all they deserve. Please see the post below about the two kiddushim where no one attends theirs because they just have cake and soda. I can’t afford lots of things either. There’s a vast difference between all brand names and not being the class/neighborhood nebach.

That's not what people are taking issues with. What we do take issue with is creating all these urgent collections/ perks by guilting the people to pay for them. The very same people who cant afford any of these things themselves are put into the uncomfortable position to pay for these things for others. Sometimes it happens directly through school mandated collections amd sometimes it happens indirectly where prices are raised to cover such costs.

And as for nebach cases, if you're arguing that 'poor chinuch folks' are the lowest earners in our society, yet we help them to make simchas and have the wares comparable to the higher society, what becomes of the poor middle class who has zero help? Aren't you transplanting the nebach status on to them - all the whole pressing them for funds to support such behaviors?

It makes no sense.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, May 23 2023, 1:34 am

amother OP wrote:

How did this happen that we are putting out scores of miniatures and other assorted cutesy items at $5-$6 A PIECE? This is not Bill Gates. This is average hard working parents struggling to put food on the table, pay the mortgage and schar limud and hopefully get the kids to camp. Somewhere along the line we have gone completely insane.

OP, I live in bnei brak, one of the poorest cities in Israel. I don't think I've *ever* seen any ad for miniatures in the local weekly advertising.
I see a huge gap in thinking and life style between bnei brak vs (some?) American communities.
DH lived two decades in NY. He drove cars that he bought on car auctions for a few hundred dollars (he is in Klei kodesh)
He didn't care about status. He has integrity. He has confidence. He is definitely not a nebbach. He has a back bone.
American male friends and aquitances told him quietly they wished they had his guts to drive a car they could afford without worrying what people would think.

amother

Starflower

Tue, May 23 2023, 2:48 am

amother Lightpink wrote:

My vort was so overwhelming . I begged my parents for a small affair in the house but why would anyone actually listen to the kalla.?? I am shy and hate being the center of attention. Moving on to my wedding I had to have a long engagement so we could have months to prepare for grand wedding - totured on every end. Begged my parents to make small wedding and get money to use to support dh In kolllel but my parents were nervous about reputation.( This was 15 years ago)

Same! I really wanted to skip having a vort and do a small wedding but my parents went into debt to throw me the standard vort and wedding. It was such a hard way to start marriage, huge events with so much social anxiety before during and after. What a waste. I wish they’d have listened to my desires but they were too worried about what everyone would think of them.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, May 23 2023, 4:43 pm

amother NeonPurple wrote:

As the wife of a Rebbi struggling mightily to pay our bills, I will tell you that when I go to the free food distributions for day old (or more) food, the gemachim with old, used clothing, the gemach with shoes from a few seasons ago, the gmach in a tiny room with used school uniforms, the shaitel gmach with shaitels that often are on their last legs and cut in out-dated styles, etc. etc. (which are not the most pleasant places to be), the majority of women that I meet there are wives of Rebbeim (or similar fields). Is this because they are loaded in money and just have some strange love for old, not fresh food and second hand, used, not the latest style clothing??

(BTW, the very nice clothing that my children are wearing are often hand me downs from wealthier friends who are not in chinuch, as is my doona, most of my furniture, etc. etc. etc. )

If you feel that chinuch is such a lucrative field, then by all means go into it. Maybe in your town the Rebbeim are driving around in Range Rovers and wearing Gucci. Not in mine.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, May 23 2023, 5:12 pm

amother Camellia wrote:

Speak for yourself. I wasn't brought up this way and didn't bring up my kids this way. OTOH...I probably didn't grow up in your kind of community, for which I am eternally grateful.