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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Amarante
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 Wed, Jun 07 2023, 8:59 am
| amother Dimgray wrote: | Sorry, I should have just written two assistants who don’t speak any English. They’re probably kind to the children.
My bad. I apologize. |
Good for you in terms of realizing that your comment on nationality was unnecessary.
Literacy in English (or whatever language you want children to learn by hearing) could be a legitimate job qualification but it would be the same if someone spoke only French or Portuguese or Norwegian.
FWIW the Latinos I deal with speak English just as my Polish grandmother spoke English although the first generation has an accent but they are bilingual and I only speak one language 
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amother
Chartreuse
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:18 am
I'm a bit nervous to post because I think I may get attacked. But I don't think popping in unannounced is neccesarily fair to the babysitter.
(This is NOT to say I think that the babysitting older woman in the OP should be protected. Yes, OP is doing the right thing by trying to address the situation when she clearly knows it is neglectful to the babies!)
But in terms of your regular babysitter that works our of her home - as someone who babysits, I would not be able to do my job as well if I was anxious that the moms could pop om any moment. Kids cry - its normal, it's their way of saying I'm tired/hungry/uncomfortable etc and sometimes 3 of them need to be attended to at once (and are making that clear by crying) and I'm of course working on it and caring about their needs as soon as I can. I don't take more than 5 (approx ages 3-10 months), and I wouldn't take that many either if I thought I couldn't take care of them properly. So yes, I'm trying to attend to their needs, but also yes, they might cry.
For example, many babies cry while going to sleep. They are fed, clean diaper, cozy, paci...but haven't fallen asleep yet, and are crying. Often I am putting 3 or more kids to sleep at the same time. If a mom came in then, it would be very stressful! And yes, if one baby needs to eat while 3 others need to go to sleep, I will need to get at least 1 or 2 sleeping before I can feed the hungry one. The reality or a babysitting group is that there is more than 1 baby, and it is something like triage - when many have needs at once, the babysitter needs to take care of what is most urgent etc.
Again, this is not really relevant in the OPs case. But since this was written as a PSA for anyone who sends to a babysitter, I just want to put it out there from the other side that there are many loving, caring, and competent woman doing thus job with a manageable ratio that would not love if you pop by unannounced and that there is crying in a babysitting group and it doesn't mean the kids are neglected.
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amother
Yarrow
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:28 am
| amother Chartreuse wrote: | I'm a bit nervous to post because I think I may get attacked. But I don't think popping in unannounced is neccesarily fair to the babysitter.
(This is NOT to say I think that the babysitting older woman in the OP should be protected. Yes, OP is doing the right thing by trying to address the situation when she clearly knows it is neglectful to the babies!)
But in terms of your regular babysitter that works our of her home - as someone who babysits, I would not be able to do my job as well if I was anxious that the moms could pop om any moment. Kids cry - its normal, it's their way of saying I'm tired/hungry/uncomfortable etc and sometimes 3 of them need to be attended to at once (and are making that clear by crying) and I'm of course working on it and caring about their needs as soon as I can. I don't take more than 5 (approx ages 3-10 months), and I wouldn't take that many either if I thought I couldn't take care of them properly. So yes, I'm trying to attend to their needs, but also yes, they might cry.
For example, many babies cry while going to sleep. They are fed, clean diaper, cozy, paci...but haven't fallen asleep yet, and are crying. Often I am putting 3 or more kids to sleep at the same time. If a mom came in then, it would be very stressful! And yes, if one baby needs to eat while 3 others need to go to sleep, I will need to get at least 1 or 2 sleeping before I can feed the hungry one. The reality or a babysitting group is that there is more than 1 baby, and it is something like triage - when many have needs at once, the babysitter needs to take care of what is most urgent etc.
Again, this is not really relevant in the OPs case. But since this was written as a PSA for anyone who sends to a babysitter, I just want to put it out there from the other side that there are many loving, caring, and competent woman doing thus job with a manageable ratio that would not love if you pop by unannounced and that there is crying in a babysitting group and it doesn't mean the kids are neglected. |
I appreciate your honesty and this is all very true thank you!
However a baby still needs to be care for right away, and 5 babies is too many to do that.
I know I'm going to get tomatoes, but I really think at that young age it's just too long to leave a baby (even with a really caring person) if it's competing for its needs.
Older babies are different.
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amother
Lightgray
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:36 am
| amother Dahlia wrote: | | People called the cops on [that person] and she was shut down. Someone should do the same for whoever this other lady is. It’s rly pikuach nefesh |
She wasn’t shut down.
My friend continues to send there.
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amother
Whitewash
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:42 am
| amother Chartreuse wrote: | I'm a bit nervous to post because I think I may get attacked. But I don't think popping in unannounced is neccesarily fair to the babysitter.
(This is NOT to say I think that the babysitting older woman in the OP should be protected. Yes, OP is doing the right thing by trying to address the situation when she clearly knows it is neglectful to the babies!)
But in terms of your regular babysitter that works our of her home - as someone who babysits, I would not be able to do my job as well if I was anxious that the moms could pop om any moment. Kids cry - its normal, it's their way of saying I'm tired/hungry/uncomfortable etc and sometimes 3 of them need to be attended to at once (and are making that clear by crying) and I'm of course working on it and caring about their needs as soon as I can. I don't take more than 5 (approx ages 3-10 months), and I wouldn't take that many either if I thought I couldn't take care of them properly. So yes, I'm trying to attend to their needs, but also yes, they might cry.
For example, many babies cry while going to sleep. They are fed, clean diaper, cozy, paci...but haven't fallen asleep yet, and are crying. Often I am putting 3 or more kids to sleep at the same time. If a mom came in then, it would be very stressful! And yes, if one baby needs to eat while 3 others need to go to sleep, I will need to get at least 1 or 2 sleeping before I can feed the hungry one. The reality or a babysitting group is that there is more than 1 baby, and it is something like triage - when many have needs at once, the babysitter needs to take care of what is most urgent etc.
Again, this is not really relevant in the OPs case. But since this was written as a PSA for anyone who sends to a babysitter, I just want to put it out there from the other side that there are many loving, caring, and competent woman doing thus job with a manageable ratio that would not love if you pop by unannounced and that there is crying in a babysitting group and it doesn't mean the kids are neglected. |
You’re mixing up two separate issues. One issue is the fact that babies sometimes cry. As mothers we all know that and there’s no need to give us long explanations or stories. The other issue is your nervousness that a mother might show up unexpectedly. If we all agree, as I’m sure we can, that babies cry sometimes even with their mothers or the best caregivers then I don’t see why you should be worried about mothers stopping in. The alternative is a lot worse as op pointed out. If mothers don’t take the time to check out what’s going on babies can suffer from terrible neglect. As someone who’s a loving, caring woman taking care of children I’m sure you’ll agree that mothers stopping by to check on their babies is the best choice.
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amother
Lightgreen
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:46 am
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I used to be a playgroup morah for young 2's. I never had any issue with mothers popping in wihtout advance warning. Why should I? I cant understand why it would be an issue? I always had an open door policy to parents. I was looking after their most precious assets, it was important to me that they felt secure and comfortable that I was caring for their children properly.
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amother
Lime
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:46 am
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I send to such a place not in the USA. There are 12 children (6m-18/20 months) 1 morah and 2 helpers. The kids I see crying when I pick up are those who are distressed that other mothers have collected and they are waiting. I live close by and whilst I don't go inside during the day, I can see the babies playing in the enclosed yard during the day time and nobody is ever crying excessively. I just guess it depends on the morah.
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amother
Salmon
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:47 am
| amother Whitewash wrote: | | You’re mixing up two separate issues. One issue is the fact that babies sometimes cry. As mothers we all know that and there’s no need to give us long explanations or stories. The other issue is your nervousness that a mother might show up unexpectedly. If we all agree, as I’m sure we can, that babies cry sometimes even with their mothers or the best caregivers then I don’t see why you should be worried about mothers stopping in. The alternative is a lot worse as op pointed out. If mothers don’t take the time to check out what’s going on babies can suffer from terrible neglect. As someone who’s a loving, caring woman taking care of children I’m sure you’ll agree that mothers stopping by to check on their babies is the best choice. |
The best solution is for a trusted third party to show-up, not the mother.
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amother
Tomato
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:55 am
| amother Chartreuse wrote: | I'm a bit nervous to post because I think I may get attacked. But I don't think popping in unannounced is neccesarily fair to the babysitter.
(This is NOT to say I think that the babysitting older woman in the OP should be protected. Yes, OP is doing the right thing by trying to address the situation when she clearly knows it is neglectful to the babies!)
But in terms of your regular babysitter that works our of her home - as someone who babysits, I would not be able to do my job as well if I was anxious that the moms could pop om any moment. Kids cry - its normal, it's their way of saying I'm tired/hungry/uncomfortable etc and sometimes 3 of them need to be attended to at once (and are making that clear by crying) and I'm of course working on it and caring about their needs as soon as I can. I don't take more than 5 (approx ages 3-10 months), and I wouldn't take that many either if I thought I couldn't take care of them properly. So yes, I'm trying to attend to their needs, but also yes, they might cry.
For example, many babies cry while going to sleep. They are fed, clean diaper, cozy, paci...but haven't fallen asleep yet, and are crying. Often I am putting 3 or more kids to sleep at the same time. If a mom came in then, it would be very stressful! And yes, if one baby needs to eat while 3 others need to go to sleep, I will need to get at least 1 or 2 sleeping before I can feed the hungry one. The reality or a babysitting group is that there is more than 1 baby, and it is something like triage - when many have needs at once, the babysitter needs to take care of what is most urgent etc.
Again, this is not really relevant in the OPs case. But since this was written as a PSA for anyone who sends to a babysitter, I just want to put it out there from the other side that there are many loving, caring, and competent woman doing thus job with a manageable ratio that would not love if you pop by unannounced and that there is crying in a babysitting group and it doesn't mean the kids are neglected. |
I’m sure you mean well and I appreciate your honesty. What your describing isn’t ok though. It’s on your chesbon to either take less kids or hire an assistant. If you can’t service the kids properly and babies are crying then it’s your achrayus. This is not a simple matter at all. Hatzlacha
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amother
Tomato
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:57 am
| amother Tomato wrote: | | I’m sure you mean well and I appreciate your honesty. What your describing isn’t ok though. It’s on your chesbon to either take less kids or hire an assistant. If you can’t service the kids properly and babies are crying then it’s your achrayus. This is not a simple matter at all. Hatzlacha |
Why are the babies crying to fall asleep? That’s real neglect and please don’t rationalize it. You need to take less babies or hire more help but the babies shouldn’t be the korbon here.
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amother
Tomato
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 9:58 am
| amother Yarrow wrote: | I appreciate your honesty and this is all very true thank you!
However a baby still needs to be care for right away, and 5 babies is too many to do that.
I know I'm going to get tomatoes, but I really think at that young age it's just too long to leave a baby (even with a really caring person) if it's competing for its needs.
Older babies are different. |
This!
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LovesHashem
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 10:01 am
Oversight doesn't mean much. In Israel that means they came once every few months to check everything was up to par and everyone was told about the visits in advance.
I think now they are surprise visits but I don't think they are more than once a month.
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amother
OP
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 10:05 am
| amother Chartreuse wrote: | I'm a bit nervous to post because I think I may get attacked. But I don't think popping in unannounced is neccesarily fair to the babysitter.
(This is NOT to say I think that the babysitting older woman in the OP should be protected. Yes, OP is doing the right thing by trying to address the situation when she clearly knows it is neglectful to the babies!)
But in terms of your regular babysitter that works our of her home - as someone who babysits, I would not be able to do my job as well if I was anxious that the moms could pop om any moment. Kids cry - its normal, it's their way of saying I'm tired/hungry/uncomfortable etc and sometimes 3 of them need to be attended to at once (and are making that clear by crying) and I'm of course working on it and caring about their needs as soon as I can. I don't take more than 5 (approx ages 3-10 months), and I wouldn't take that many either if I thought I couldn't take care of them properly. So yes, I'm trying to attend to their needs, but also yes, they might cry.
For example, many babies cry while going to sleep. They are fed, clean diaper, cozy, paci...but haven't fallen asleep yet, and are crying. Often I am putting 3 or more kids to sleep at the same time. If a mom came in then, it would be very stressful! And yes, if one baby needs to eat while 3 others need to go to sleep, I will need to get at least 1 or 2 sleeping before I can feed the hungry one. The reality or a babysitting group is that there is more than 1 baby, and it is something like triage - when many have needs at once, the babysitter needs to take care of what is most urgent etc.
Again, this is not really relevant in the OPs case. But since this was written as a PSA for anyone who sends to a babysitter, I just want to put it out there from the other side that there are many loving, caring, and competent woman doing thus job with a manageable ratio that would not love if you pop by unannounced and that there is crying in a babysitting group and it doesn't mean the kids are neglected. |
I worked for years at legal daycares and for a scary 4 months at an unlicensed one. At all places I’ve worked, knowing the parents were welcome and encouraged to stop by at any time kept everybody on their toes and on their best behavior.
At the unlicensed take care, I was often left alone with 6-8 children ranging from six weeks to age 3, and it was really scary and very difficult. The owner would often leave me alone and tell me that although she tells parents that her door is always unlocked, but I should lock it when I am alone. She also locked the door when she put on a show for the kids so she could go cook in her kitchen and I was again sitting there with so many little kids. There was absolutely no way I was able to safely take care of all of them and there was always somebody crying. I finally quit when the owner went to Isreal and left me by myself (the other girl she supposedly hired was a no-show and I was never told her name) and surprised me with 12 to 13 kids, all but the official 6-8 were “2 week drop-ins”. In other words, she made a lot of extra money with all the extra children while she was out of the country and left me with everybody. And during that time I made sure that parents knew that they could drop in at any time so they knew exactly what was going on. Then I quit the day she got back.
I’m not in this work anymore but it’s really scary to see one person watching more than two babies at once.
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amother
Foxglove
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 10:20 am
| notshanarishona wrote: | I used to send a babysitter, one day I showed up unexpectedly and saw her by the entrance to the dirah where the laundry room was (which means she took the time to go down 3 flights of steps, lugging her laundry, turn it on and sort , etc), while leaving 10 babies unattended. That was my last day sending there. It’s not just about the ratios, you need to really vet your babysitters.
40 kids in any infant room is insane regardless of how many assistants there are, but even 1:13 is still way too high.
I wouldn’t send to bigger than 1:6 for an infant, 1:10 for a baby. |
Omg. But how are you so sure she didn't have someone home who was watching the kids? That's scary if she left them. I doubt they all nap at once, and even if they do, they need someone watching, at least on the same floor.
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amother
Papayawhip
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 12:49 pm
I think it's interesting that people feel it's the rabbonim's issue to take care of this. Umm, hello each of these children has parent(s) who are willingly putting their child in this situation. They are the ones who should be aware and do due diligence.
Also, as a mother myself, I know exactly how much work taking care of even 1 baby is, what exactly are you expecting when you leave your child in a group? If you gave birth to twins, let alone triplets there isn't a question to hire a nurse. But somehow this magician babysitter should manage even a "small" group of 5 kids?
I do send my kid to a babysitter btw. The problem is making it on one income is pretty impossible these days and people feel like they need to look away because they have no choice which unfortunately I can relate to.
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amother
Yarrow
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 12:53 pm
| amother Papayawhip wrote: | I think it's interesting that people feel it's the rabbonim's issue to take care of this. Umm, hello each of these children has parent(s) who are willingly putting their child in this situation. They are the ones who should be aware and do due diligence.
Also, as a mother myself, I know exactly how much work taking care of even 1 baby is, what exactly are you expecting when you leave your child in a group? If you gave birth to twins, let alone triplets there isn't a question to hire a nurse. But somehow this magician babysitter should manage even a "small" group of 5 kids?
I do send my kid to a babysitter btw. The problem is making it on one income is pretty impossible these days and people feel like they need to look away because they have no choice which unfortunately I can relate to. |
We have one income and a lot of debt. My child's well being is more important. Hashem provides parnassah, I need to do the best I can (which right now is not sending my baby to a group of 15). When baby is older I will reconsider.
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amother
Dustypink
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 1:26 pm
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I think that op has a responsibility to tell the mothers who send next door what is going on. I would definitely want someone to let me know if it was my child
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amother
Oldlace
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 1:40 pm
| amother Yarrow wrote: | I appreciate your honesty and this is all very true thank you!
However a baby still needs to be care for right away, and 5 babies is too many to do that.
I know I'm going to get tomatoes, but I really think at that young age it's just too long to leave a baby (even with a really caring person) if it's competing for its needs.
Older babies are different. |
For that reason, some babysitters take 1-2 young babies and a couple of older babies whose needs are not as immediate.
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amother
Dahlia
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 4:15 pm
| amother Papayawhip wrote: | I think it's interesting that people feel it's the rabbonim's issue to take care of this. Umm, hello each of these children has parent(s) who are willingly putting their child in this situation. They are the ones who should be aware and do due diligence.
Also, as a mother myself, I know exactly how much work taking care of even 1 baby is, what exactly are you expecting when you leave your child in a group? If you gave birth to twins, let alone triplets there isn't a question to hire a nurse. But somehow this magician babysitter should manage even a "small" group of 5 kids?
I do send my kid to a babysitter btw. The problem is making it on one income is pretty impossible these days and people feel like they need to look away because they have no choice which unfortunately I can relate to. |
I don’t think it’s their issue to take care of. But I do think that we should go to them and ask guidance on how to proceed. There r many variables to take into account. Sometimes the parents know about it and simply don’t care… a rav can look from outside and figure out what the right way to approach it is and guide us on what to do as to not hurt anyone in the process
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amother
Peru
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Wed, Jun 07 2023, 6:29 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I worked for years at legal daycares and for a scary 4 months at an unlicensed one. At all places I’ve worked, knowing the parents were welcome and encouraged to stop by at any time kept everybody on their toes and on their best behavior.
At the unlicensed take care, I was often left alone with 6-8 children ranging from six weeks to age 3, and it was really scary and very difficult. The owner would often leave me alone and tell me that although she tells parents that her door is always unlocked, but I should lock it when I am alone. She also locked the door when she put on a show for the kids so she could go cook in her kitchen and I was again sitting there with so many little kids. There was absolutely no way I was able to safely take care of all of them and there was always somebody crying. I finally quit when the owner went to Isreal and left me by myself (the other girl she supposedly hired was a no-show and I was never told her name) and surprised me with 12 to 13 kids, all but the official 6-8 were “2 week drop-ins”. In other words, she made a lot of extra money with all the extra children while she was out of the country and left me with everybody. And during that time I made sure that parents knew that they could drop in at any time so they knew exactly what was going on. Then I quit the day she got back.
I’m not in this work anymore but it’s really scary to see one person watching more than two babies at once. |
Where was the unlicensed day care? Is she still open?
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