Vacation w/o children = trauma for the kids?

Nicole

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 8:59 pm

I'm kind of upset. Dh and I are planning a trip to E'y Be'h next year. I'm looking forward to some time with him, and rejuvinating my neshoma, and going to the kotel... We would love to go for 10 days. We're thinking my parents will watch the kids (who will be'h be 2 1/2 and a yr) for half the time, and my in laws for half the time.
I presented the idea to my mother who kind of agreed but sounded unsure about the whole thing, and then she finally called a few minutes ago to say that "it's REALLY none of my business... but don't you think that if you go away for that period of time... that the kids will be traumatized?"
I"m so so upset. I know it sounds ridiculous but I"m so hurt. The undertone of her voice said, "can't you think about your kids and not just about taking a vacation?" Meanwhile- my 4 year old brother has not been away from my parents for a SINGLE NIGHT- total enmeshment if you ask me. and if you mention it to them, they STILL say he's too young, he'll be scared.
Okay, I'm calming down now, that was just my hotheaded temper speaking.
But do you ladies think that something like this would be TRAUMATIZING?

dillie

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 9:06 pm

I see both of your points. Mostly your mother's, though.

I wouldn't leave kids that young for more than 2 or 3 days. On the other hand, I can't even imagine my mother or MIL (both of whom are terrific grandmas, don't get me wrong) being willing to take kids that young for that length of time.

Do you have any idea how lucky you are?

Side point- maybe your mother really doesn't feel like doing it, but she would feel bad telling you, so she's saying it this way instead.

mommalah

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 9:13 pm

Certainly not. I think if your kids know their grandparents and the grandparents are a presence in their lives then there isn't any issue. In fact, it could only be positive for all. You come back feeling spiritually fulfilled. Your relationship with your husband is strengthened. And your kids have spent good quality time with bubby and Zaidy. sounds like an awesome plan. Do you think your parents just don't want to do it and that's where this whole trauma thing came from?

stem

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 9:14 pm

My opinion is that children that young SHOULD be enmeshed with their parents. A four year old is still a baby, yes, and his parents are his whole world. Sorry if it ruins your vacation plans but when you have children your own wants and even needs have to be put on hold sometimes. For a 2.5 year old, let alone a 1 year old, ten days is a lifetime and your desire to Daven at the kosel is completely meaningless to them. You are their whole world, the center of their existence, literally. I can't imagine they would be just fine, and besides, would you want them to?

GAMZu

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 9:33 pm

After my tirade on the "kimpeturen homes" thread, you might be surprised to hear that I'm on the fence about this one.

In general, I think that children than are OLDER than 2, probably closer to 3, can be left with loving grandparents for about a week, not much longer.
It's very different than dropping them off somewhere to have a baby because A) They don't get deposited somewhere at some odd hour when everyone is in a rush and the atmosphere is full of chaos. B) When they finally return home, there is no new family member that changes life as they know it.

But a one year old? That's tiny. A kid that age would never understand even superficially that his parent will be back, ever.

And I don't think there is anything wrong for a 4 year old never to have slept away from home and away from his parents. Where should he go and why?

MiracleMama

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 9:39 pm

I'll share my personal experience to answer you:

Neither my husband or I have had any desire to go away on vacation without our son. Not for a night and not for 2 weeks. Not at all.

Several months ago I had a serious medical issue that required me and my husband to travel to another state for treatment. There were multiple reasons why taking DS along (he was 1.5 yrs at that time) was absolutely impracticle and not in his best interest. We were unsure how long we'd be gone too. B"H I was able to rely on my mother to take care of him while we were gone.

For my husband and I it was horrible leaving our child behind. It was so painful not to have him with us and to wonder if he felt abandoned or angry or traumatized in any way. We ended up being away for 2 weeks and it felt like a lifetime to me.

But the truth is that DS did great. I don't even know that he missed us much at all. (And I'm a SAHM so he is used to being with me ALL the time). We found him completely healthy and happy and having an amazing time at Camp Bubby. The trauma was all ours, not his.

Obviously every child is different and it makes a difference how comfortable your children are with their grandparents, but in general I think our children are much more resilient then we give credit for. You know your own kids' personalities and if YOU don't think they will be traumatized by your leaving for 10 days, then probably you're 100% right.

If you have any doubts, why not do a test run and see how your kids do spending a shabbos weekend alone with bubby and zaidy?

Nicole

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 10:28 pm

Thank you all for your posts. I see that I have a lot to think about. Especially since the children we're speaking about are now ALMOST 2 and only 6 months, it's hard to envision next winter. DD went to mil for a few days when ds was born and she was totally fine. so I guess theoretically that counts as a "test run" although 10 days is much more than "a few days".
To be perfectly honest, I myself am torn. I keep thinking about how much I will miss dc, and I think I will be totally out of my element without my kids and being around all the israeli relatives who'll be busy with their kids. Sad

I guess I was just upset at the idea of traumatizing my kids, whereas I can think of many other things that traumatized ME as a child, or things that my parents do that I dont agree with, and, obviously, I don't voice my dissent about that.
Thank you all for your food for thought.

Starhavah

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 12:44 pm

stem wrote:

My opinion is that children that young SHOULD be enmeshed with their parents. A four year old is still a baby, yes, and his parents are his whole world. Sorry if it ruins your vacation plans but when you have children your own wants and even needs have to be put on hold sometimes. <snip> You are their whole world, the center of their existence, literally. I can't imagine they would be just fine, and besides, would you want them to?

I have to say that I do not believe this. I think it is hugely UNhealthy for a child to be enmeshed with their parents. Some children may be able to be 24/7 with their moms and then healthily separate in time for preschool/kindergarten but more often then not, kids who have never been separate from their parents have no idea what to do when they go to school.

The children who transition easiest in social situations have been in a social atmosphere without mom before.

I am not commenting on the vacation plans because I had no desire to spend a vacation without dd at that age and I have no idea if it is appropriate or not. I am just commenting on the above statements.

One other thing. When I was 13 months old my mom went into the hospital to have my sister. She was in the hospital for 7 days. I started walking while she was in the hospital. When she came home, apparently, I refused to go to her because I was so mad at her for "abandoning me". It lasted a day or two and I got over it. I never even remembered it growing up. I know it because I have been told the story.

Star Havah

GAMZu

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 2:56 pm

Quote:

I refused to go to her because I was so mad at her for "abandoning me". It lasted a day or two and I got over it. I never even remembered it growing up.

Not everything is measured by "long term" effects/trauma. Many people say this- that it took a day or 2 and the kid forgot it and life went back to normal.
But what about those 7 or 10 days that the child was going through this? Plus the extra couple of days it took to get back to normal? That isn't nothing!

It's like the studies that show that Attachment Parenting practices don't have a long term affect on the children. These kids grow up just the same as the ones whose parents let them CIO and potched them for any misbehavior, etc. Possibly. But the actual time the child is receiving the gentle discipline instead of a smack, and the time that the baby is in a sling on the mother's chest instead of a bouncy seat, and the days a baby spends away from its mother and is wondering whether or not she'll ever return... all that has an effect on the child at the time he's experiencing it.

Quote:

more often then not, kids who have never been separate from their parents have no idea what to do when they go to school.

The children who transition easiest in social situations have been in a social atmosphere without mom before.

So isn't there always a first time? Isn't there a first time that a child will be separated from his parents in a social situation and will have that hard first transition? What's to say it's better for it to happen when he's one or two or when he's entering school for the first time? What's the rush to train a kid into social situations without his parents, just so the next time should be easier?

freidasima

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 3:24 pm

I'm flipping out.
Trauma?
Depends on whether the kids are used to their grandparents and like them. Sounds like they have young grandparents as well if they still have a four year old at home!
Otherwise, why only go for ten days? Go for a month and have a great time (if you can afford it!)
And tell your mother (who must be my age) that when our kids were young we would leave them all the time with my parents and they were quite at home there...
Worked out that we had to go to America twice, when the oldest was a year (I'm told that when we called and she heard my voice, she licked the telephone receiver) and when the two oldest were a year and three...we were away for a month each time.
It was wonderful.
To we without the kids.
Didn't miss them for a second, we were too busy (working there) and in our free time buying things for the kids.
Miss them? It was a pleasure to sleep through the night. Let my parents get up (they did+). BTW they were already not young, my father was in his twilight years already and he would still get up early before minyan and change the kids and play with them at 5:30 AM...
Trauma?
Yes, it was truly a trauma for us to come home and have to take care of them again in our own place...it was so nice being without them for a while...
But we got over it...
The kids didn't want to come home to us either actually, and my mother had to throw them out of the house and promise that they could sleep over the following shabbes at Bubbie and Zaidie...we cried a lot but they just wouldn't keep them any longer, they wanted to go away themselves...

So we compromised and after they were away alone for a week we sent them the kids again for a month to the apartment they were renting in the "country" for the month (their vacation, yeah even in EY people would do that, it was cheaper than going away to a resort or hotel or something).

That was such a wonderful summer.

Nicole

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 3:42 pm

Your post made me smile. Very Happy

I don't think I could ever leave my kids for THAT long (maybe we ARE a little bit enmeshed) but it's interesting, I spoke with my mil today about the whole thing and she has raised quite a few very emotionally healthy children, she's very aware of these things, and she was all for it. She thinks it will be fantastic for the marriage and family all around. beh e/t will work out...

realeez

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 4:24 pm

GAMZu wrote:

I 100% agree with all of the above. (But from my experience 5 days is too long for ME (although my 5 y.o. wanted to sleep over one more night at Savta's lol)

stem

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 5:07 pm

Gamzu, I'm with you.
Fraidasima, not at all.

I guess there are different kinds of families, some are more attached to each other than others. I personally feel that it's very important for kids to feel a sense of connectedness and belonging to their core family (parents and siblings) not to say that they shouldn't feel comfortable with grandparents, aunts and uncles.
The sense of "we're in this together" and "all for one and one for all" is something that is important to imbue in the home, and will ensure that the kids will want to stay connected even when they are grown up and out of the house.

Nicole

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 8:24 pm

Stem, that's definitely a good point, but, as mentioned above, a couple's connectedness (is that a word?) needs to exist in order for a family to function as it should. Sometimes that may neccesitate the parents going a way for a short period. My children love both sets of grandparents and I do believe they'd have a great time.
I don't think there's one right derech. I think ppl need to do what's best for their situation.

GAMZu

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 11:33 pm

You know, my kids love my mother to bits. Really, they do. My 1st son is a very sensitive and reserved type of kid. He's intense with his preferences, but in general, he recoils when he's out in the "world." He LOVED to go to my mother and would spend hours with her. He'd make up issues and problems as to why he can't go home when he saw she was ready to bring him back.

My 2nd is very outgoing. He says hi to everyone outside. He's not emotional or rational and a bit on the wild side. He's really fearless. But when my mother takes him, his lip starts quivering and he says in a high pitched voice that he only wants Mama. He doesn't actually cry, and we do distract him and he goes happily. He has a GREAT time with my mother. But he's a real Mama's boy. That's his only weakness. I guess it's all in the personality.

freidasima

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 11:42 pm

Stem I hear you, but none of my kids are mamas kids or daddy's kids, and my parents (if not my inlaws who live overseas but even they to some really great extent as they make tremendous efforts) are "core family".

I guess we are the old fashioned kind of family which never included a nuclear family...we were lucky enough to give our kids two sets of grandparents, unlike me whose father's parents were killed in the Holocaust, and they were an integral part of the nuclear family from day one. Except for before the kids were born we always lived walking distance from my parents, and the kids would go back and forth on their own as almost infants! There was a walkway behind the buildings on our street from our house to my parents old apartment and as all the neighbors knew everyone in those days (ah for the good old days) the kids could walk there alone in the late 1980s (yep, they were around 4, 6, 8 etc.) and if something would happen the neighbors looking out of their kitchen window would keep an eye on them..

So for me it was normal to send them to my parents and later to my mother after my father a"h was niftar.

I love my children to bits but I think it is very important for them to be attached to other members of the family. I have too many cases in my circle of friends and broad family where something happend to a parent, illness, or worse and if those children didn't have a large set of really close people, they were in such a terrible state. As my own family is so small and dh's is largely overseas we wanted them to at least be close to my parents and our closest friends. And so they are until today. All of them...

Besides, I love to "miss" my kids.
Just the other day middle dd asked dh how long he thinks we want to continue living in our apartment...he looked at her funny and said "you know, most parents are asking kids of your age when THEY plan to move out!"

I think that our kids sometimes feel "too" at home here...I wish they would just all get married and move out already...but I'm a bit afraid that they will get married and move "in" with their new spouse...heck, the more the merrier, it's so crowded here already that another few won't make a difference and there will be more hands to do dishes...