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Are Americans or Israelis better off financially?



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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 27 2008, 9:17 pm
Inspired by the recent tuition thread.

In this thread, many posters were suggesting to the OP that moving to Israel will help solve her financial problems. However, even with the tuition crisis, it still seems to be that the average American is better off than the average Israeli. I often see Israelis coming here to collect tzedaka, but to my knowledge Americans to not regularly travel to Israel to collect.
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RachelEve14




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 27 2008, 10:57 pm
I think it really depends on what you do. In the states I taught special ed, and dh is a cook (at a yeshiva). So assuming we had the same jobs, yeah, I think we are better off here. I have heard from friends that teachers don't get such great deals in the schools anymore, and I have no idea what a plain cook makes (not fancy gourmet chef) but somehow I doubt it's 100K a year. Anyway he's British and there is the whole green card issue but putting that aside...

On the other hand, I know some anglos here who had very high powered jobs back in the states. Wife was a lawyer and husband a big doctor. She doesn't speak hebrew and wouldn't be able to work in her field here (at least not before a lot of ulpan) and doctors here make a decent living but not 300,000 a year. I think they would probably do better in the states financailly.,
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 27 2008, 11:56 pm
I think there are those who do better and those who do less in both places. A very small percentage of Israelis go to shnorr in the US. These are usually people who choose to be in kollel even though they have nobody to support them or people collecting for mosdos.

Most of us work hard.

How much you earn is not what gives you the well off feeling but how far your disposable income goes or do you finish the month. Not only is tuition much cheaper here but also housing. These are a major part of your expenses in chutz. If you are a professional then in some fields a chutznik would be treated as more desirable.

As to needing "tons of ulpan". After you learn basic conversation there is professional ulpan designed for specific fields. You pass this and the board and you are in. I know someone who barely can make conversation today after some 10 years here and passed her nursing boards. She worked her first year in an American medical center and only after having several kids did she take a loss in pay to work in her neighborhood kupat cholim.

Much has to do with stereotypes. I find that many Americans from afar decide they MUST live in Y-m, which is uber expensive even though they have no idea what other communities there are. Many Israeli families will live in a much cheaper but just as nice community and save to move at some point but after saving and reaching their goal they find that their present community is home and the money would be better used marrying off their kids.

Another thing that causes discontent is the awful practice of directing Anglos towards large Anglo concentrations. This just drives up housing costs, slows integration and fuels the expectation that Israel should be a little America.
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 12:21 am
And let's not forget the affordable health insurance.

Although 'luxury' items, such as cars are obscenely expensive (to buy and the gas).
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 12:54 am
If you trade up correctly its no big deal to buy the car. Running it is a horse of a different color.
Most young couples here buy an old car, save and trade up. I know professional couples get their car from leasing companies and there are some very good deals there. One friend always requires the company give him a car and keeps an older car around for his wife or older kids to go shopping or such.
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 12:59 am
When I lived in the U.S. I had the perception that people are doing better here than there (comparing apples to apples, not millionaires with poor people). I think people, strange as it may sound, are under LESS financial stress (again, comparing apples to apples). It's easier to get by with less and you don't feel "miskain".
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catonmylap




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 1:17 am
I think we would do better there. We are both highly educated. In Israel, the pay scales do not correlate as much to levels of education. Fields that in the states you know you can make a livable, respectable income pay horrendously here. If I could do it over, I think I would pay more attention to where the money is.

Living in cheaper areas is great but you have to factor in if you can find jobs in those areas or if you are going to spending lots of time and money commuting great distances. It's similar in the states though that so many people live in the NY-NJ bubble and don't look outside it for more affordable places to live.
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 1:27 am
catonmylap wrote:
I think we would do better there. We are both highly educated. In Israel, the pay scales do not correlate as much to levels of education. Fields that in the states you know you can make a livable, respectable income pay horrendously here. If I could do it over, I think I would pay more attention to where the money is.

Living in cheaper areas is great but you have to factor in if you can find jobs in those areas or if you are going to spending lots of time and money commuting great distances. It's similar in the states though that so many people live in the NY-NJ bubble and don't look outside it for more affordable places to live.


My experience in the U.S., having lived in 4 different areas, 3 outside the metro NY/NJ area is that it's never enough. Unless you are truly wealthy, bringing in at least $300K these days in the NY/NY metro area, probably a bit less elsewhere.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 2:05 am
I agree with what's been said so far.

Those going to America to ask for money are not doing so because they tried to work and couldn't. Israel has jobs, and Israel has unemployment and a welfare system for those who can't find work or just can't work, period. Those who go to America for money instead either don't want to work or want to buy more than they can afford (ex, apartments for children) or just have some really crazy expenses and think Americans are more likely to be able to help (ex, they need a really expensive surgery abroad and they know that help from Americans goes further because of the exchange rate). It shouldn't be taken as a sign of the overall financial situation in Israel.

And whether or not an individual person or family will be better here or there depends on their situation. We would never be able to get by like the typical frum family in America. There we would find it hard to buy in a small frum community somewhere (there's no way we could ever afford to live in a major frum community), and impossible to pay tuition. We'd have to homeschool, which would mean only one salary, and which would become impossible at some point as they kids outgrew our knowledge. And dh would need to get a masters before working in his field in the states. So it would be very very hard. Here it won't be easy either--we're not exactly in fields that make the big money, and we're not very educated yet (dh is finishing his BA, I have a high school diploma from the states, which means nothing here)--but it will be possible. We can afford to get an education. We can move to the middle of nowhere and still be in a Jewish community. We can send our kids to private religious schools for much less than 1/3 of the average salary. If that fails, we can send them to public religious schools for very cheap (supposed to be free, but nothing's really free).

So if you're making a lot of money in the states, you'll probably be better off there (only financially, of course). If you're poor, you'll be better off here (not only does your money go further, but you feel better about having very little). Lower middle class, probably also better off here, since here even teachers and social workers and policemen can live in a frum area and send their kids to good schools. Middle class is a toss up, but with rising tuition costs I would say probably also better off here, because tuition at a good MO school is about 1/9 of a middle class salary and not 1/4. (This is talking in general, as specific families have to think about their own professions, knowledge of Hebrew, ability to learn Hebrew, etc).
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 7:49 am
ora_43 wrote:
I agree with what's been said so far.

Those going to America to ask for money are not doing so because they tried to work and couldn't.


I beg to differ. A not-inconsiderable percentage of the collectors here are employed - full time - as rebbeim in chadorim, mashgichim and so on, but these jobs barely pay a living wage. When it comes to marrying off children, or medical expenses that aren't covered by Kupat Cholim, they are absolutely sunk.

Many of these people have tried working second and third jobs and still can't make ends meet. If you're not a professional - and sometimes even if you are - you will not earn a living wage, no matter how hard you work.
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 7:57 am
There are P L E N T Y of non professionals making a living wage and even beyond that here in Israel. Come on: your sofa-cleaner (mine drives a lovely van) is a professional? Your store-keeper is a professional (you should see the houses of some of these guys)? Your gas distributer is a professional?
The difference may be number of children, whether or not the wife works, standard of living, and expectations from life.
And those shnorers who come from Israel to your doorstep in the U.S.: who is paying their airline tickets, which can cost nearly a month's wages? Who asked them to come to me in the U.S. and shnor for money for apartments - when I don't own one? What ever happened to the good-old work ethic? It's easier to shnor, that's what happened!


Last edited by Tamiri on Sun, Sep 28 2008, 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 8:06 am
sarahd wrote:
ora_43 wrote:
I agree with what's been said so far.

Those going to America to ask for money are not doing so because they tried to work and couldn't.


I beg to differ. A not-inconsiderable percentage of the collectors here are employed - full time - as rebbeim in chadorim, mashgichim and so on, but these jobs barely pay a living wage. When it comes to marrying off children, or medical expenses that aren't covered by Kupat Cholim, they are absolutely sunk.

Medical expenses not covered by Kupat Cholim include things like treatments for the rarer forms of cancer, experimental surgery, etc. If a person in America had a similar illness they would also need financial help, unless they were very rich. The fact that a particular salary can't cover the costs incurred by someone with a rare disease doesn't make it a bad salary.

Also, if you read the rest of the paragraph you quoted from, you'll see I did say that many collectors are employed and looking for money for unusual expenses.

As for marrying off kids--those particular collectors live in a society where they're expected to make huge financial contributions to their married children. Could most of the American Jews you know afford to buy 50% of an apartment in a city with a large Jewish population for each of their children? I'm guessing not. The issue of funding weddings is one of expectations, not salary.

Quote:
Many of these people have tried working second and third jobs and still can't make ends meet. If you're not a professional - and sometimes even if you are - you will not earn a living wage, no matter how hard you work.

The question here isn't professional vs. non-professional, it's American vs. Israeli. If you don't have a professional job or a higher education in the states, there is no way that you can afford frum living. It's not like in Israel a mashgiach without a high school diploma struggles to get by, but in America he'd have a private house and could easily pay tuition for his ten kids. If anything, it's at least possible here. In Israel there is such a thing as a frum family getting by on the kind of salary you can earn without a diploma, in America I have yet to hear of it.
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mimivan




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 8:06 am
I'd say here, partly because, there is less of a stigma on not having. I don't think people are competing on who has the best sheitel, cleaning help or outfits and it is less embarrassing being here in second hand clothes than it would be in the states. (in fact, where I live, I'd feel self-conscious if my sheitel were "too nice" my clothes were "too new" and if I had cleaning help...I am the only Anglo in the kehilla and I we don't want to here "Ahh...rich American...eh?" stereotype...)

That's not to say it is okay to look like a shmatta and act like a miskenchik, but people are much more tolerant of those people who don't have as much or who don't want to spend their extra money on things they don't need because they don't want to seem like a "nerd."
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 10:44 am
First of all, it is a total misconception that most American frum Jews are concerned with appearances and having excessive luxuries. That may be true in the NY area, but not everyone lives in NY. Most of the people who I know here live like I do, buying second-hand clothes, driving used cars, and paying a mortgage on a small, reasonably-priced house.

The reason why people like this are struggling to pay their bills is not because they are buying designer clothing or eating out every week, but rather it is just trying to cover major expenses such as the mortgage, tuition, food, healthcare, car insurance, etc.

Now I know that some of these expenses will be much lower in Israel (although I'm not convinced that I could buy a house for much less than an out-of-town house in a frum community in the US), but salaries are also lower, right?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 11:04 am
Atali wrote:
First of all, it is a total misconception that most American frum Jews are concerned with appearances and having excessive luxuries. That may be true in the NY area, but not everyone lives in NY. Most of the people who I know here live like I do, buying second-hand clothes, driving used cars, and paying a mortgage on a small, reasonably-priced house.

The reason why people like this are struggling to pay their bills is not because they are buying designer clothing or eating out every week, but rather it is just trying to cover major expenses such as the mortgage, tuition, food, healthcare, car insurance, etc.

Now I know that some of these expenses will be much lower in Israel (although I'm not convinced that I could buy a house for much less than an out-of-town house in a frum community in the US), but salaries are also lower, right?
just like anywhere in the world, it depends what you do for a living.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 11:57 am
Atali wrote:
Now I know that some of these expenses will be much lower in Israel (although I'm not convinced that I could buy a house for much less than an out-of-town house in a frum community in the US), but salaries are also lower, right?

The advantage of Israeli housing isn't that it's cheaper, but that it's cheaper relative to the Jewishness of the community. In the states you can get a bigger space for $90,000 than you can here, but here you can get a nice apartment for $90,000 and still be in a neighborhood that's 100% frum Jews. Whereas in the states you'd probably have to go way out of town to a place that's mostly not Jewish.

I don't think Americans are obsessed by "things." But there is definitely more of a sense, in my experience, that kids are nebach if they have to share a room with multiple siblings, or that working certain jobs is degrading, etc. Here if you have seven kids sharing two bedrooms and you mop stairways for extra cash before Shabbat, it's not a "nebach" thing, it's just life.

As for salaries, yes they are lower here. But some of the most necessary expenses aren't just lower here, they're lower as a percent of a typical salary. I can get state health care plus some additional coverage for the whole family each month with what I earn in three hours, and I'm not such a big earner. Tuition at a good MO high school yeshiva is 1000NIS/month, or 1/7 of an average (post tax) salary, while in the states it would be more like $15,000 a year, which is more like 30% of the average salary. Even by working a minimum wage job as a cashier or cleaning lady you could make enough money to send 3 or 4 kids to top yeshiva high schools or 6 or 7 kids to private elementary; I doubt you could do that in America.
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mamacita




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 4:42 pm
mimivan wrote:
I'd say here, partly because, there is less of a stigma on not having. I don't think people are competing on who has the best sheitel, cleaning help or outfits and it is less embarrassing being here in second hand clothes than it would be in the states. (in fact, where I live, I'd feel self-conscious if my sheitel were "too nice" my clothes were "too new" and if I had cleaning help...I am the only Anglo in the kehilla and I we don't want to here "Ahh...rich American...eh?" stereotype...)

That's not to say it is okay to look like a shmatta and act like a miskenchik, but people are much more tolerant of those people who don't have as much or who don't want to spend their extra money on things they don't need because they don't want to seem like a "nerd."


Yes I agree!

Do you know how many people I know who would never us a bubby cart for shopping because of how it looks? Sometimes appearance does trump practicality in chul. Not mentioning excessive gashmius, just little things like that.

When I compare the menu posts in the regular section to the ones in the life in israel section the difference is pretty large! I would personally have never consider eating as frugally when I lived in the US as we are accustomed to now and I was always known as a bargain hunter. We're hoping we can live like Israelis in America, it's just different. There are plenty of Americans living american lives in in E"Y for the good and the bad of their budget so you can do that too!
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 28 2008, 6:04 pm
I think that if you are professional, but not the really rich kind like top high tech workers, famous private surgeons etc. you can still so better in the USA but only if your job gives you benefits. Here you can be a professional such as a clinical social worker, a psychologist, a university professor, a government accountant or actuary, but you won't be getting the kind of benefits you will get in the USA.

For example, none of the people above would get a car allowance, Imaonwheels, not leasing, not anything like it. Those are usually only in private firms and lots of people here work for government or government style jobs such as both dh and I do. In the USA where it is much cheaper to buy and run a car, they wouldn't need such an allowance.

Health care in the States is extremely expensive, however such government or quasi government jobs in the USA give health care and excellent health care as part of their salary packages. Not so in Israel.

Food - in general good food, if you are not buying Rami Levi and lots of people can't, because there IS no Rami Levi near them or they don't have cars to get to outlying big wharehouse markets - is cheaper in the USA then in Israel. That includes everything across the board though, you can't single out one item. Last time I was in the USA my MIL, who is a lovely good woman and mother, asked me what dh would like as a treat and I said "lamb chops" which I never get here, ever ever ever. She wrote me that they were $15 a pound which was outrageous...and she, who also loves them, never bought them. I told her that here they were going for twice as much.

When we got there, she had a plate of lambchops ready for dh.

Tuition is a make or break issue. If you have seven children in the USA it is rough. If you have three or four you budget differently but I haven't seen middle class professional parents send their kids to public school because they can't afford yeshiva tuition.

The problem really is "keeping up with the Jonses" everywhere, but if you don't fall into that, again, I think that for many professional middle class people it is easier financially, while of course not spiritually, in the USA today.
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