The best way to get help without asking

chanagital

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 10:52 am

ora I made some mistakes in my initial post for a variety of reasons. For that I apologize. I still say that neither you or anyone else (including myself) should judge anyone. It should be obvious why not if you have Yiras Shamayim and I'll leave it at that. I see how it's easy for ppl to say "put aside luxury and move into a one bedroom apartment". So my dd should sleep in the same room with her two dbs? What about modesty and decency? She is at the age where she can't do that anymore. Sure some people are lenient and will let that go on later but it doesn't make it right. Dividers aren't the answer either.

shayna82

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 11:13 am

avigailmiriam wrote:

amother wrote:

if you're that poor that you're TAKING from a food bank, it's time to spend the car payment on groceries.

What about the people at the food bank who AREN'T paying a car payment? Is it fair to them that someone paying a car payment is ALSO taking?

We happen to have 2 cars. That's because we can afford it. We don't go to a food bank. If it ever comes down to us needing to ask for handouts, we'd sell the cars. Public transportation is a couple dollars a day rather than $200+ a month.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with LA, but there is almost no public transportation and the entire area is geared towards cars. In most places, you can't ride a bike or walk safely on the roads.

what ???? there is most certainly tons of public transportation!! you can get anywhere on a bus in l.a.

shayna82

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 11:16 am

amother wrote:

daamom wrote:

Ok, you beat me to it, Avigailmiriam.
I'm talking from NY experience - I guess I can't imagine an American city without great public transportation. Still, if you live within walking distance from most places, I can't imagine there aren't sidewalks for pedestrians. Or get a bike.

Oh, there is definitely public transportation here but its more local and generally jews do not use it. And of course ther are sidewalks with plenty of people walking on them. But I dont think there is anyone here who doesnt have at least one car, most have 2. You wont understand it unless you live here. If I have to go to a doctor who is 45 minutes away there is no way to get there without a car.

if your talking about l.a.

since when do jews not use public transportation. you do what you need to do. if you want to get to the beach, you can take a bus... you can get anywhere with a bus.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 11:23 am

chanagital wrote:

Well I guess all the people in Yerushalayim 100 years ago who were mamash tzaddikim (and many today) didn't have any yiras shamayim in your book, since the whole family slept in the same room. Why can't you use dividers? And/or your daughter gets dressed in the bathroom.

People with yiras shamayim try not to take from others or spend what they don't have (obviously everyone on their own level, and most people have times when they need to take), not rent apartments they can't afford.

ora_43

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 5:15 pm

chanagital--
You posted your situation and asked how you can make things better. True, you were asking how you could get help and not where you could cut back, but I think when you post here asking for help you open yourself up to the possibility of advice you don't like.

IMO, judging you would be if I said you're a bad person, chv"s, and I never said that and don't think it. I'm just trying to give some options here. I'm not trying to blame you or make you feel bad, just to help think of ways you can change things. Because in your current situation, I think it will be hard for you to get financial help from the community, so it's probably best to think of other options as well.

Keep in mind that you do have halachic responsibilities when it comes to taking money. Of course if you really need money you can take, and even should take, but you should make sure to discuss all of these things with your rabbi. The issue of whether your dd can share a room with her young brothers or whether it's better to get tuition assistance might be a good practical question to start with.

Raisin

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 5:31 pm

shalhevet wrote:

chanagital wrote:

I don't really think it is fair to ask the Op to move into a 1 bedroom apt. How tzaddikim lived in yerushlayim 100 years ago is not so relevant. You really cannot stick 3 or 4 kids and parents into one room. I doubt landlords would even rent to a family like that.

Chanagitel - why can't you sell your car (it sounds like you bought one new, if so you should be able to sell it for quite a lot of money) and buy a much older car for a fraction of the price. you will be able to pay off your debt. It really sends the wrong message to people when they see you driving a new car.

chanagital

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 10:13 pm

Shalhevet-
Not "all the people in Yerushalayim 100 years ago or today are tzaddikim". You use that term too loosely.

Secondly my statement on Yiras Shamayim wasn't related to the bedroom situation but to the issue of people judging others such as you are doing to me. Please read the post carefully before you attack it blindly.

Contrary to what you say I'm not trying to take from others or spend what I don't have. We're right on the cusp of making it and having difficulties and was asking for advice not petty attacks or negative comments. If this is Chesed, who needs it? I'm tired of people being mean or insulting all in the name of performing so-called Chesed. Enough said.

chanagital

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 10:20 pm

Ora--
"I think when you post here asking for help you open yourself up to the possibility of advice you don't like."
You're right I ask for advice and Chesed or understanding but instead get judged harshly.

FYI the definition of judging is:

"to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises" or "to sit in judgment on"
It has nothing to do with bad or good. No one on this Earth has the right to judge and you know that so quit making excuses.

You're entitled to an opinion but please save criticism and negativity for someone else.

I know my halachic responsibilities and consult with the local Rav which was implied in the initial post.

chanagital

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 10:23 pm

Cookielady-

I expect Yidden to act with respect and decency and not to insult and jump on people... They need to start acting like a holy people and not a bunch of heretics. I have my issues as we all do and try to do my best and sometimes I fail.

It's better that some ignore my post than comment with the rude insulting jabs they have.

I guess I ask too much...

And imagine HaKadosh Baruch Hu expects much more from us all...

Last edited by chanagital on Mon, Nov 24 2008, 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

RichWithNachas

Mon, Nov 24 2008, 11:09 pm

Rebbitzen Sheingarten A'H , a well known psycologyst , spoke about her impoverished upbringing. One dress was all they had which was worn inside out during the week, and turned right side in on shabbos. Freinds was not at all on the page.

Her point: What people endured 50 years ago , is unheard of , and extremely psycologically damaging for our generation. A child must have clothing, freinds, possessions etc. And if necessary, asking when in need is praiseworthy, rather than being neglectful to the needs of children.

Agreed that noone can or should ever judge. They are not in your situation. You are the best judge in this time of need. Perhaps because the need is so great, we merit today to have many charitable. organizations availabe. And the Tzedoka that is donated was created for that purpose. The donor was handpicked and entrusted with this holy purpose. In order to reach the right destination. It belongs to you, and on Rosh Hashana the Aiberster decreed that it belongs to you. If it not used for this purpose,it will be lost.

May all of our requests be fullfilled by the greatest donor of all: Hakodosh Baruch Hu Exclamation

Last edited by RichWithNachas on Mon, Nov 24 2008, 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2008, 4:28 am

Let me see if I understand

Expressing sympathy + trying to help + proposing that you get the car company to change your rate = good and respectful and helpful.

Expressing sympathy + trying to help + proposing that you cut back on expenses or change your lifestyle in some way = disrespectful and indecent and insulting and "acting like a bunch of heretic" (what a respectful, decent description, btw) and of course, judgmental.

Is that how it works?

Raisin--I think people are suggesting a two-bedroom apartment, not one bedroom. Shalhevet's point, as I understood it, was just to point out that even Torah giants have had their minor children share a room and therefore there's no halachic/tznua issue, not that everyone should live like that.

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 25 2008, 4:46 am

chanagital wrote:

Shalhevet-
Not "all the people in Yerushalayim 100 years ago or today are tzaddikim". You use that term too loosely.

That's not what I said. I said:

Quote:

Well I guess all the people in Yerushalayim 100 years ago who were mamash tzaddikim (and many today)

I wrote all the people... who were mamash tzaddikim... meaning: those who were tzaddikim (also) did xyz, not that everyone in Yerushalayim was a tzaddik. Otherwise I would have separated the phrase: who were... with commas from the main sentence.

Quote:

Secondly my statement on Yiras Shamayim wasn't related to the bedroom situation but to the issue of people judging others such as you are doing to me. Please read the post carefully before you attack it blindly.

I think you are extremely rude (not just to me). Why is making a point called 'attacking blindly'? And instead of telling others to read posts carefully, maybe you should write them more carefully. Since I am not a prophetess, I have no way of knowing that the beginning of the paragraph was unconnected to its continuation. Everyone can read it again and decide if it was clear, or only I don't read posts carefully before 'attacking them blindly'.

ora_43 wrote:

Shalhevet's point, as I understood it, was just to point out that even Torah giants have had their minor children share a room and therefore there's no halachic/tznua issue, not that everyone should live like that.

Thanks, ora, that's exactly what I meant. Chanagital claimed she cannot move into a smaller apartment, not because the material standard bothers her, but because:

Quote:

So my dd should sleep in the same room with her two dbs? What about modesty and decency? She is at the age where she can't do that anymore. Sure some people are lenient and will let that go on later but it doesn't make it right.

I was pointing out that I hardly think it is being lenient, since gedolei olam didn't see any problem with it. How old are your children, chanagital?

Quote:

Contrary to what you say I'm not trying to take from others or spend what I don't have. We're right on the cusp of making it and having difficulties and was asking for advice not petty attacks or negative comments. If this is Chesed, who needs it? I'm tired of people being mean or insulting all in the name of performing so-called Chesed. Enough said.

So only you are allowed the petty attacks and being mean and insulting?

chanagital

Tue, Nov 25 2008, 10:44 am

Shalhevet

At this point I care very little of your opinion. We seem to think the same of one another so leave it at that.

"Why is making a point called 'attacking blindly'? "
You have no tact or decency. You don't make valid points. You make harsh judgments on people. I don't need your negative opinions. Save them for someone else.

"So only you are allowed the petty attacks and being mean and insulting?"

No you have a monopoly on that I'm just trying to defend myself even though I really don't have to. In any event I consider this thread over so let it die.