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Explaining segulas
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Tzippora




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:03 am
Also: I will not defend the indefensible. Miriamf, you article is not my hashkafa, nor that I grew up with. The Rambam himself is adamant about the need to understand that science changes, and that we should follow the latest information. Why? Because he was a scientist! So no, Aristotle's physics were not correct, even though the Rambam believed in them.

Their science was based on the science of the times. Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong. Either way, they were men, not gods, and I'm ok with that. Hashem didn't tell them about antibiotics either. And that's fine.

Also, believing everything the sages said about science, collectively, requires believing 25 mutually exclusive things before breakfast. Not so likely.

This hashkafa may be yours, and it may be the direction our society is moving in, as the author mentions. But it is not mine OR my rabbis', and that hashkafa has a place - in fact I think it is the correct and only intellectually defensible view!
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:07 am
zaq wrote:
miriamf wrote:
.
For example, tashlich. Does Hashem forgive your sins more if you stand by water so the fish could eat them?


AAMOF I read in more than one sefer that the rabbanim opposed the custom of tashlich. the bottom line is, people will do what they want to do. If an idea captures the people's imagination, they will accept it even over rabbinical opposition, until eventually it becomes "minhag yisroel" , but that doesn't make it a good thing.

and incidentally, I will stick my neck out here and make a lot of people mad, but in the middle ages the rabbanim all opposed the use of wigs, certainly human-hair wigs, as kissui rosh for married women-- and in the middle ages the wigs were nowhere nearly as realistic as the ones we have today yet somehow...somehow....human-hair wigs morphed into minhag yisrael. Interesting, isn't it?
Sorry Tzippora, I see it was zaq. No zaq, tashlich isn't in the Siddur of the Baal HaTanya, or the Ari zal because their imagination was captured.

In the middle ages the majority of Rabbanim approved of, didn't oppose the use of wigs - I posted a whole list of Rishonim and Achronim, eminent Poskim, Gedolei Yisroel of past generations, who paskened that wigs were fine, it's on imamother somewhere, will post the link. A very scant minority was against it.


Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tzippora




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:09 am
TzenaRena wrote:
Quote:
Sigh.. I'm not Reform.
oh, but bible criticism aka picking holes in the teachings of our sages, etc. are deficiencies in Emunah and violations of the 13 principles of faith.

Just btw, the seder of tashlich is printed in our siddurim and machzorim. (I'm not sure if you're the one who "knew" that tashlich was a made up thing.)


Ok, you know not of what you speak. I haven't brought up anything even slightly related to bible criticism, as it's not anything I know about. Sorry to disappoint.

I am not picking holes in anything. I am not suggesting changes in practice, and I am certainly not even suggesting changes in the reasons we do things. I suggested that there are various alternate explanations for why we do certain mitzvot, and I find certain ones more compelling than others, personally. THAT IS ALL.

And I never said tashlich was made up. I said throwing bread in the water is a later minhag - the origins of it are a siman malchus because you're near water. Neither my father's family nor my husband's family throw bread in the water - it wasn't done by litvakos, at least on my father's side.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:19 am
see my previous post.
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Tzippora




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:20 am
My bad.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:21 am
We don't throw bread by Tashlich either, btw.

But the difference I see here, perhaps the reason for the Great Divide (as miriamf put it), is that not everything has to make sense for me in order for me to believe there is absolute truth to it. Since the basic premise to me is that every word of the Torah Shebaal Peh is true from G-d Himself, it doesn't bother me that I don't understand what the Chachomim are talking about when they say things like to take a fetus of a kitten and put it by your bed or whatever. I don't mind not understanding it. Me not understanding it doesn't change the validity of the Chachomim's words. I don't put myself on an equal level to the Chachomim to decide whether or not what they say is true. And it doesn't matter anyway if I thought I could, because the premise that the Torah Shebaal Peh is from G-d still stands true despite my own little existence in this world.
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gonewiththewind




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 11:22 am
Tzippora wrote:
Also: I will not defend the indefensible. Miriamf, you article is not my hashkafa, nor that I grew up with. The Rambam himself is adamant about the need to understand that science changes, and that we should follow the latest information. Why? Because he was a scientist! So no, Aristotle's physics were not correct, even though the Rambam believed in them.

Their science was based on the science of the times. Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong. Either way, they were men, not gods, and I'm ok with that. Hashem didn't tell them about antibiotics either. And that's fine.

Also, believing everything the sages said about science, collectively, requires believing 25 mutually exclusive things before breakfast. Not so likely.

This hashkafa may be yours, and it may be the direction our society is moving in, as the author mentions. But it is not mine OR my rabbis', and that hashkafa has a place - in fact I think it is the correct and only intellectually defensible view!


Ok, it does have a place, and is mentioned as an opinion, though not to the extent you take it. However to hold that the Rivash, maharal, Chazon Ish, and R' Elyashiv hold "intelllectally indefensible" positions is arrogant. I could never believe that I know better than people who spent their life seeped in gaining torah and were recognized as leaders of klal yisroel. The hashkofa has a place, the attitude doesn't. Oh, and BTW, I don't think you are reform. LOL
My husband's family has a lot of scientists. My FIL is a physicist, as is his brother, and there are some biologists and other scientific disciplines. One cousin wrote a book about maaseh breishis and how it is spported by science. Knowing science does not necessarily lead one away from this hashkofah.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 4:55 pm
The great lack of information and misinformation that is here has more to do with educational hashkafa on kabbala and rationalism.

I work with all kinds of school and it is a fact that most MO schools deliberately edit out huge amounts of sources of a mystical nature and teach "educated guesses" of academics as scientific truth.

Charedi Litvish schools wouldn't dare delegitimize Kabbala being that it is part of Torah but marginalize it. The hand washing example is excellent. The GRA held that hands be washed 4 times instead of 3. My friend who went to YU was taught that not washing by the bed is following the GRA. Certain inyanim from Kabbala have been codefied as halacha in the Shulchan Aruch. Others depend on what is appropriate for the individual.

Most Chassidim keep various level of kabbalistic practice with varied requirement to try and understand. Ditto all Sefardim who pasken only by Sefardi shitot. Their psak takes kabbala into consideration also in formulating psak.

All 3 emphasize those sources that agree with their viewpoint. Hence, the objectively untrue belief that most authorities forbade the wig or Sefardim never wore wigs that many believe are Torah miSinai.

To say segulot are a"z is to contradict the overwhelming bulk of rabbinic opinion. And yes, segulot can be abused, but so can definite mitzvot like tznius and kashrut. We don't cancel something because it may be abused.

One of my teachers said a segula is something that we no longer understand the connbection between the action and the result.
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TheBeinoni




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 6:25 pm
I'm not nearly as well versed as any of you ladies here, but this topic is quite timely as a friend of mine just asked me if I would like to go to the mikvah with (after) her as a segulah to get pregnant (she is in her 9th month). After reading all these posts, I was wary because I wasn't sure if this segulah had any basis at all, so I asked my rav. I told him that I know the best "segulas" are giving tzedakah, working on mitzvot, davening, and I also explained to him that I did not want to do something that was not based from a mitzvah whatsoever, and that if I would (unlikely, maybe it's pessimistic but I don't think it's happening anytime soon) get my yeshua, I wouldn't credit it to the mikvah because I know only Hashem could really make it happen (especially with all these odds against me).

His response was,
"By definition 'segulas' are ways of better aligning ourselves to receive Hashem's brochos; we should never see the segula as bringing us success 'on its own'.
I've never heard of this segula, but I think it's an appropriate idea."
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 6:55 pm
Wow! Love your post and the Rav's response. Perfect.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 7:13 pm
Meaning, it's not avodah zorah, either !
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shanie5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 11 2009, 9:50 pm
TheBeinoni wrote:
I'm not nearly as well versed as any of you ladies here, but this topic is quite timely as a friend of mine just asked me if I would like to go to the mikvah with (after) her as a segulah to get pregnant (she is in her 9th month). After reading all these posts, I was wary because I wasn't sure if this segulah had any basis at all, so I asked my rav. I told him that I know the best "segulas" are giving tzedakah, working on mitzvot, davening, and I also explained to him that I did not want to do something that was not based from a mitzvah whatsoever, and that if I would (unlikely, maybe it's pessimistic but I don't think it's happening anytime soon) get my yeshua, I wouldn't credit it to the mikvah because I know only Hashem could really make it happen (especially with all these odds against me).

His response was,
"By definition 'segulas' are ways of better aligning ourselves to receive Hashem's brochos; we should never see the segula as bringing us success 'on its own'.
I've never heard of this segula, but I think it's an appropriate idea."


I've asked our rov about this, and it should be on the night u are supposed to go to the mik. your friend should go that night, and 'dunk' right before you.
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